Sixteen

[stickhorse]

Originally Posted by 4qtrs

Many programs are K-12 and have hundreds of kids attending.

K-12? I can almost understand taking a kid out of their junior or senior year to fence, if thats really what they want to do. But to homeschool a child (who doesn't need the extra help) through elementary school, is something I would never wish on any child.
And I'm speaking from experience here. My parents are dance teachers and own a dance studio. They have taught, and currently teach, dozens of homeschoolers. I can pick out those kids from a mile away. They act differently because they haven't had the same experiences as children who attend public or private schools. If a parent wants to homeschool their child they should be required to hold a degree in each subject they're teaching. And I know that homeschoolers don't just learn from their parents, I know they use computer programs and textbooks and all that stuff. But its still not a substitute for a normal education.
Education meaning not just classes, but also life experiences and learning how to interact with teachers and peers. How do you expect these kids to successfully function in college and at work?

[4qtrs]

Originally Posted by stickhorse

But its still not a substitute for a normal education.
Education meaning not just classes, but also life experiences and learning how to interact with teachers and peers. How do you expect these kids to successfully function in college and at work?

Stickhorse, I recognize that you have very strong and set feelings about homeschooling young kids. All I am saying is that independent study programs are different all over the country. Some are very good at intregating socially and some aren't.

The anti-social problem I believe is a large issue with several generations of kids and adults. I also believe that technology, whether it is TV or a computer game or email tends to take the humanistic interaction out of the exchange.

So, my point is that HS'ing isn't the only place that social isolation can effect ones humanistic/spritial growth.

[stickhorse]

Originally Posted by 4qtrs

So, my point is that HS'ing isn't the only place that social isolation can effect ones humanistic/spritial growth.

I completely agree. But, it is one of the most preventable.

[Lucifer]

If parents are going to be required to hold a degree in every subject they teach, then so should teachers. (Here's a hint, they're not. You just need a masters in something to teach in public schools, and it doesn't matter what)

What's do bad about kids not having the same experiences as each other, anyway? My experiences both as a kid and now as a parent with public schools is leading me to think that homeschooling really is best, and it's too bad we can't do it right now...

[Fencing Mom]

"You just need a masters in something to teach in public schools, and it doesn't matter what."

Not exactly. Except in areas that have a critical shortage of teachers, you need a teaching certificate to teach in public school. You get that certificate by fulfilling curriculum requirements while you are getting your bachelor's or master's. If you want to teach English, you have to take a certain number of credits in literature and composition, in how to give tests, grade, and manage a classroom.

And saying that homeschooling is better than public education is just as misinformed as saying public education is better than homeschooling. It depends on the kid, the situation in the home, and in the public school.

[Lucifer]

The catch being that I didn't say anything absolutely, I was speaking in relation to my own kids. However, you assume that I'm misinformed, but you know not from where my own information comes. That's not conducive to a useful or productive conversation.

I don't really feel like ranting on how bad the US public education system is, but I can't help but wonder why so many students in my school (I'm a 32yo college kid myself) can't write, can barely read, can't do math, and have absolutely no understanding of the scientific method. These are kids aged 18-40 (the oldest I've seen was over 40). Why is it generally accepted that higher education is required for such basic skills?

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Stickhorse,
Your own social development could use some work.
1. You are not a parent so speaking to parents like you are an expert on home education is ludicrous and also rude.

2. Research doesn't bear out what you are saying. Home ed kids are different. They can talk to adults, they don't have to have age peer approval for doing everything they do and they are ready for college because they have for the most part amazing self discipline for pursuing their interests.

3. You live in the Bible belt where many of the homeschoolers are highly religious. They are not the typical homeschooler.

The (slightly annoyed) Momster

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Mo

Stickhorse,
2. Research doesn't bear out what you are saying. Home ed kids are different. They can talk to adults, they don't have to have age peer approval for doing everything they do and they are ready for college because they have for the most part amazing self discipline for pursuing their interests.

Originally Posted by stickhorse

I can pick out those kids from a mile away. They act differently because they haven't had the same experiences as children who attend public or private schools.

Amazing how similar these two statements seem to be.

Used for opposite arguments.

-B

[qatet]

Originally Posted by stickhorse

I can pick out those kids from a mile away. They act differently because they haven't had the same experiences as children who attend public or private schools.

I coach well over a hundred kids every week. Sometimes there are homeschooled kids who act like that. Sometimes there are kids who play well with others and I learn three years after first meeting them that they're homeschooled. And then, there are also a wide range of kids who go to public and private schools of various sizes and who have plenty of trouble interacting with others.

When I first started coaching, my own impression of home-schooling's effects was similar to yours. Working with so many kids of all different kinds of educational backgrounds has given me a new respect for home-schooling.

[stickhorse]

Originally Posted by Lucifer

I can't help but wonder why so many students in my school (I'm a 32yo college kid myself) can't write, can barely read, can't do math, and have absolutely no understanding of the scientific method.

If kids want to learn they will. Thats how it works. And it works the same way in homeschooling - if a kid doesn't want to learn, they won't.

I'm not speaking for anyone but myself here. I don't know your kids - maybe they do great - but I can only speak from my personal experience. Where I live, homeschooling is probably not as great as it is wherever you are. And the public and private schools around me are probably better than yours by the sound of it.

[dcmdale]

Originally Posted by Fencing Mom

"You just need a masters in something to teach in public schools, and it doesn't matter what."

Not exactly. Except in areas that have a critical shortage of teachers, you need a teaching certificate to teach in public school. You get that certificate by fulfilling curriculum requirements while you are getting your bachelor's or master's. If you want to teach English, you have to take a certain number of credits in literature and composition, in how to give tests, grade, and manage a classroom.

I am not sure that one can accurately characterize credentialing requirements across all of the U.S. Politicians have a lot of say in what gets taught and who gets to teach it, but your statement is probably generally accurate for public high school. State laws vary with respect to private education and some do require credentials for private schools are well. Elementary school usually has a separate credential requirement. The content of credentialing programs varies widely between jurisdiction and education school.

That said, most credential programs that I have looked at don't have a significant emphasis on the subject matter being taught. (It is assumed that you are getting that information from your classwork in that subject). However, depending on the program, they tend to be very heavy on things like classroom management, diversity issues, "in front of class" training, etc. that is not as applicable to a homeschooling environment. A lot of the focus seems, naturally, to be on keeping a group of 30+ kids moving forward as a group.

The need for subject matter expertise increases with grade level. When we decide on curriculum each year, we also evaluate our own ability to teach it. Part of that is whether we know the material enough to teach it. Part of it is whether we can provide the appropriate equipment (science). Part of it is whether classroom interaction is critical (e.g., foreign languages). Where we don't feel that we are going to be able to provide the best education, we send our kids to classes. Occasionally, the problem has been that even though we know the material, they need a different approach. We have sent them outside for that as well. On the other hand, if one of my kids wanted to study something outside the norm that was not core to their education and neither myself nor my wife were able to properly teach and couldn't find an outside course on, I wouldn't hesitate to do something where we learned together and I would consider that as part of learning how to learn.

As kids get into high school, it is pretty common for HS parents to send them to community colleges for classes that the parents don't think they can do right.

Many states require homeschool kids to take standardized grade level tests at the end of the year (e.g., SAT's) to ensure that kids are getting a solid education.

Originally Posted by Fencing Mom

And saying that homeschooling is better than public education is just as misinformed as saying public education is better than homeschooling. It depends on the kid, the situation in the home, and in the public school.

Absolutely. At the moment, we have one at home and one in public school. Both are in the right place for them right now.

[dcmdale]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Amazing how similar these two statements seem to be.

Used for opposite arguments.

-B

Yes. I think that an unspoken component of the discussion is whether "being different" is good or bad. And the answer, as usual is, "It depends."

[Lucifer]

dcmdale: I think you hit the nail on the head. Easily I've encountered more people opposed to homeschooling than I've encountered people actually doing it, and teh common reason for opposition is "different experiences". Not "worse experiences", mind you, just "different". I think the fundamental problem is deeper...

[Peach]

I know many of both. I can't tell the difference between home-schooled kids and school-educated kids, and I'm a teacher. Some of both groups are precocious children who interact more successfully with adults than kids, and some of both groups are exceedingly religious and sometimes narrow-minded with it. I'd say the only difference I notice is a slight naivete on both sides about the other side . . .

All that said, you should understand that all children are home-schooled unless they're being raised in an institution and don't know their parents. Kids model themselves on their parents and absorb their parents' values to a remarkable degree, even if those kids go to boarding school most of the year.

[4qtrs]

(As the thread takes another turn...)

I find that fencers on the whole tend to be comfortable socializing with people from all age groups. I have often thought that it is actually a great benefit of the sport to have such a wide range of ages participating.

Maybe we have a diverse division, but I have seen it at NACs too.

[dcmdale]

Originally Posted by stickhorse

If kids want to learn they will. Thats how it works. And it works the same way in homeschooling - if a kid doesn't want to learn, they won't.

If a homeschooled kid doesn't want to learn, they probably will be a public schooled kid soon. Homeschooling represents a huge investment of time and money. If the kid isn't benefiting (in the eyes of the parents, at least), they are going to be in regular school very soon.

OTOH, homeschooling can eliminate many of the demotivating factors in education. Classes can move at the pace of the student, speeding up over areas that the student already gets and slowing down where the kid needs help or wants to go deeper. They don't have to learn in lockstep with 30 other kids. The curriculum is (or can be) more flexible to the learning style of the kid. It is common for us to dump a textbook mid-year in favor of another because it just wasn't working for our kid. It can be more hands-on and less textbook if that works better for a kid.

[sleepyweasle]

I thought this thread was about why many 16 - 17 y/o's have a slump in their performance NOT a debate regarding the merits of home schooling vs. public schooling.

I know the reason MY kid is not fencing as well as she could be is sheer EXHAUSTION. She gets home from school around 3 and, because of the commute involved, leaves to catch the train into the city to get to her fencing club at 3:30. She returns home around 10 PM then eats dinner, showers and finally starts her heavy load of homework from her multiple AP classes (she does try and get some done on the train). Let's just say, unfortunately, sleep is a luxury on this schedule. Add in multiple weekend trips across the country and to Europe for fencing and I can certainly understand how she is not in top competition form. In fact, I don't know how she does it at all. And I am sure there are many other kids in this age group with the same sort of schedule and problems with fatigue. And that's not counting the additional stress for these kids with upcoming SATs and AP tests in the next few months. Or attempting to have some kind of social life as well as their academic/athletic life.

Many kids this age are just plain tired all the time. Period. It naturally may affect their performance. It has nothing to do with whether home schooling or public schooling is better for kids in general.

[Timo]

Tired is true. Speaking as a teenager I'm almost always at least a bit tired, if not exhausted. \
On the homeschooling, I was homeschooled 2-4 grade (I was going to go back in 4th, but we went to 49 states that year instead). I still learned more in 4th grade then I have since, and regularly draw upon it in school's today. I'm not the most scocially adept student, and I was shy to begin with, so the thought of 'if I had not been homeschooled would I have been able to talk to anyone with out getting nervous and/or having anyone to talk to' regularly crosses my mind. I don't know, but I still wonder...