Sixteen

[sleepyweasle]

I would imagine there are fewer instances in which a home schooled student has to fly home on the red-eye from a west coast tournement, get in to the airport at 6 AM and have to be at school by 8 AM to take an exam that they have been told they CANNOT miss because they have had to reschedule so many already. As my child has had to do on occasion. This has been known to add a bit more stress to the competition environment.

[Mo]

Originally Posted by Phincer

From what I see, where I sit, I wish I'd done the homeschooling thing instead of public school-but who knew?

We did the home education thing from the beginning for my daughter and three years too late for my son. He would have been so much better off had he never been to school.

We chose homeschooling as our lifestyle. Because of it and the lack of a second income my family lived in what were practically shacks most of our married lives. My hub and I have been married 22 years and the house we have lived in less than a year is the first house we have ever had that has more than one bathroom.

My daughter has a hell of a lot of work to do all the time. She has deadlines. She has had to stay up late in Europe and find an internet connection to finish work that has to be turned in by the next morning. She does this on a regular basis with totally messed up sleep time.

Everyone has the same options.

You pick what works best for your family. Just because a kid is home schooled doesn't mean they have an unfair advantage.

Every kid works hard, every kid has a lot of pressure. Most of the fencers on the east coast ride trains to practice and have tons of homework to do on top of it.

Home ed has been wonderful for us. I kind of resent when people present it as an unfair advantage especially seeing how hard my daughter works to get where she is.

She does have a flexible schedule but she also has classes, work outs, lessons, tutoring, and practice every day. She goes from 9 in the morning until late at night non stop.

It takes works, dedication, supportive parents, realistic expectations and the fencer owning their activity for it to work for any fencer. The availability of a good coach is also helpful. The East coast has a much higher level of fencers with which to practice too.

There are trade offs and sacrafices for everything. Pointing to home education as a way to make things "easy" is just not appropriate.

The Momster

[Phincer]

Didn't say it was "easy", just an advantage-also please re-read my statement that from what I've seen, you can re-schedule exams, attendance is flexible, fencers weren't penalized like they are in public school, etc. I thought I made it abundantly clear that this was one opinion, and that there were others out there who will have had different experiences.

I am deeply in awe of families that do this (successfully). The HSers here tell me it IS easier and an advantage for their kids that are fencing...

[OMCEPKEN]

It is the wrong perception on your part.

At age 16 /17 your child should be spending significantly more time and training with greater intensity to refine technique, build endurance, gain competitive experience and learn strategy.

These are critical years in a fencers developmental process. A drop off of results likely points to not keeping up with peers who are taking the sport more seriously.

[4qtrs]

Originally Posted by Phincer

Didn't say it was "easy", just an advantage-also please re-read my statement that from what I've seen, you can re-schedule exams, attendance is flexible, fencers weren't penalized like they are in public school, etc. I thought I made it abundantly clear that this was one opinion, and that there were others out there who will have had different experiences.

Your right, it is an advantage. We pulled our kids out of public schools because they were so bad. I figured that if I left them in they wouldn't make it into college. Theor independent study program which does give us a great deal of flexibility.

What would be wonderful to have is a high school that did both training and education. Like the ski schools that they have in Vermont. They train in the morning, do class work mid day, then train after classes.

[sleepyweasle]

Originally Posted by OMCEPKEN

It is the wrong perception on your part.

At age 16 /17 your child should be spending significantly more time and training with greater intensity to refine technique, build endurance, gain competitive experience and learn strategy.

These are critical years in a fencers developmental process. A drop off of results likely points to not keeping up with peers who are taking the sport more seriously.

Remember, please, that for some families home schooling is not an option - i.e. when both parents work. We strive, therefore, to have our child try and get the most out of her public education ( and than heaven we live in one of the best public school districts in the country - although I believe all public schools are going down hill fairly rapidly) which means taking AP/accelerated classes. Unfortunately, unlike the figure-skaters who "attend" our public high school (who - I will admit, do go to the Olympics, but NEVER actually seem to go to any classes), my child is trated like any other kid in high school and subject to the same attendance rules etc. Thus she has had to go to school while sick as a dog because she had already used up her allowed absences to attend fencing competitions. Whie it would be nice to allow her to do nothing but train for fencing - I have tried to give her as "balanced" an adolescence as possible. She has all of college and beyond to train for the Olympics. She will most likely never again get to play viola at Carnegie Hall, organize bake sales with classmates to raise money for charity, hang with friends and read poetry at "coffee house", and generally learn how to balance the rigors of school, the turbulence of adolescent emotional/social life, and training for a competative fencing career.

Next year will be significantly easier for her scholastically (only 3 AP's instead of 5) and she will be able to increase her training accordingly. A very few talented individuals are able to reach the Olympic level, most of whom (forgive me Becca!) are, at least historically, over 18. I want my kid to enjoy her high school years as much as possible as she will never get this time back. Her Olympic training can begin afterwards. If she makes it - wonderful!!! If she doesn't - at least she had a good time growing up.

[dcmdale]

Originally Posted by 4qtrs

I was actually thinking more along the lines of people who have been fencing for a while. It seems to me that the 16-17 year is a tough one for maintaining results.

Or perhaps it is more of an issue of teenagers reaching a high level (top 32)and then plateauing. There seems to be a certain surge effect of the group that is stuck in the 64 suddenly moving up to the 32 and the ones that were in the 32 moving to the 64 (not all, but enough).

Has anyone else noticed this?

Absolutely. As we were in the Y14 phase, we watched our daughter's clubmates that had been Top 8 fall off the face of the earth as they moved into the 16-17 year old time frame. Sometimes it was a conscious decision to emphasize academics over athletics. Sometimes it was boredom after 6-8 years of national competition. Sometimes it was time to make a choice between competing sports. Sometimes it was injuries. Sometimes it was members of the opposite gender. As a Y14, my daughter was taking NAC medals in Cadet.

Now it is our turn. It is hard to tell a kid that they should blow off homework because fencing in more important. Discouragement over results makes fencing less fun. It is clear that lack of training hours is directly related to poorer than expected competitive results.

Her coach agrees with her priorities and, further, is emphasizing maturing her into a solid Div 1/Jr/Future NCAA competitor rather than Cadet (which she just aged out of). This means letting her struggle more on the strip, figuring out herself what she needs to do. It means that stimulus-response training takes a back seat to strategic decision making. (I think there is a natural progression in fencing instruction from having to think about every action to having a fluid, automatic response to virtually every competitive situation to using the freed-up brain power to set up the competitive situations).

She has spent the last 2 years fighting injuries/health problems. As a Y14, she continually pushed her body. Now her body is pushing back: some of the problems are fencing related, some not. Stamina, because she is no longer putting in 20 hrs/wk of training, is a significant factor.

We see gradual improvement in Jr/Div 1 results, probably because she is getting an adult body and is much stronger.

Looking ahead, I see that several of those that hit problems at 16-17 and continued fencing have rebounded as juniors/college fencers (while some that made it through that period dropping as college pressures hit).

Homeschooling helped while we were doing it. You still have to cover the same academic material, but we could structure research papers etc. around the competitive schedule rather than having to worry about a heavy assignment being given Friday (due Monday) before flying out. On the other hand, assuming that she is fencing in college, she is now learning about dealing with that--the problem is not going to go away. Frankly, 1-on-1 instruction is a lot more efficient (for the student) in any case--at least for most subjects. The total number of hours dedicated to education was much less when homeschooling. (Note: that we weren't trying to push our kids to be "5 years ahead of their class." Our daughter went into public school at grade level with all AP/Honors classes).

For a serious fencer, ages 16-17 isn't where you are trying to peak. It is still very much part of your developmental period both as a fencer and a person. Results now are far less important than the end result.

[brtech]

Originally Posted by Mo

...She goes from 9 in the morning until late at night non stop.

...

You see, there it is, the big difference. The one that REALLY makes it work. She starts at 9, about as early as she can actually function well. 10 would be better. She stays up till late, as she is quite able to do.

My daughter, also a Jr/Div 1, but not as competitive as yours, has to be up by 6 and in public school by 7:15. She still stays up late. Poor performance is the result.

We know FOR A FACT, that teenagers don't work well in the early morning, and normally stay up way past midnight. This one is the last of four at our house, and they all fit the pattern. When we force them to conform to 7-7:30 start times for school, we have sleepy, poorly performing kids. Of course, the same applies to a 7-8 am check-in for a Cadet or Junior event folks!

I'll bet you that ALONE gives her an advantage over any public (or private) schooled teen.

We know exactly why we continue to abuse our teens this way: teacher preferences, team athletics, and after school jobs, none of which should be interfering with learning, all of which do.

[Mo]

Originally Posted by brtech

We know exactly why we continue to abuse our teens this way: teacher preferences, team athletics, and after school jobs, none of which should be interfering with learning, all of which do.

The thing is though is that you have the same choices we do.
We chose to homeschool because that was the way we wanted to live. You have to buy into the competitive rat race in order to participate in public schools. If that is what you want to do, then do it.

I was reading an article in HEM Magazine and this is part of it:http://www.homeedmag.com/HEM/HEM146....clmn_tkch.html

What happens when we take responsibility for families? Amazing things! We discover that our children learn and do better outside school. We take control of our time and spend it on what is most important to us, setting our own schedules and timetables for learning, going to a park on a beautiful day, reading stories late at night, sleeping as much as we need. We take control of space as we arrange our homes in ways that are comfortable for us, learn from the whole world, understand nature through direct experience, and much more.

Home education is not about fencing. Home ed is a choice people make to bring up their kids without the influence of outside "experts" completely dominating their choices.
Even this thread is turning into a competition.
The Momster

[4qtrs]

Not to get into the middle of the 'bout' here but I think that one factor that needs to be recognized is that the world has changed a great deal since we were in school.

Jobs are different, schools have taken on new and dynamic avenues and life has too. Maybe because I live in LA I see all kinds of different ways that people go about their education, jobs and lives.

The path of the '50s/'60s is not even close to what these kids are experiencing now.

[seven6ty]

...I'm surprised Tom Powell hasn't shown up in here yet.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

You have to say his name three times, like in "Beetlejuice."

By the way, who is Tom Powell?

[occasionalfencer]

As a homeschooling mother myself, I have met a lot of homeschooling mothers who were not themselves homeschooled. Nearly all of them went to their local public school, including me. I have taken to saying that the current success of homeschoolers is built on the success of the last generation's public schools. Which is only one of many reasons there does not need to be any competition, or animosity, between those who choose homeschool, or public school, or private school. Each of us does the best we can with the possibilities we have at that time. Some of us regret decisions we made, both ways. I think we can learn more about educating our children by listening to each other, and appreciating what is good in each different situation, than by trying to say that one size fits all, or one sort of schooling should be the best for everyone.

[OMCEPKEN]

Cliff Bayer (foil) was senior national champion at 16 and made 2 olympic teams before / after school.
The ages between 16-22 are around the time that fencers should be making significant improvements. If not getting results, these teenagers are likely not training as much as their peers.

[4qtrs]

Originally Posted by OMCEPKEN

The ages between 16-22 are around the time that fencers should be making significant improvements. If not getting results, these teenagers are likely not training as much as their peers.

Well, that is quite a span of years to be making that statement.

To me it is the time that people start to assert themselves as individuals and by 22 have been knocked around enough to have some sense.

[Hutchison]

Originally Posted by 4qtrs

Maybe is it a wrong perception on my part, but it seems to me that (at least for guys) the year between sixteen and seventeen is a rough fencing year for results.

I have seen several examples of kids who have consistantly done well up through 14 and 15 having difficultly when they are 16.

Has anyone else noticed this?

I started a YR ago and my skill and tourny standings have only gone up.
Who ever is having these troubles have other things on there mind at the wrong times, At least thats what I'm guessing.

[pacer]

The age between 16 and 17 is when many kids get their driver's license, start dating, and feel the pressure to get grades good enough for college. Some start working, too. My own kid grew 3 inches (but only gained 5 lbs) and had a mild case of mono. He changed clubs and coach. Overall that year resulted in some of his best - and worst - results. It simply wasn't a consistent time. However, it was a year when his coach kept him well grounded and focused. (with all that growth, he just kept forgetting to bend his knees!) He now a more mature and analytical approach to fencing.

[suterces]

I assume your kids are taking the same amount of lessons and going to the club as often as they usually do.

Sometimes it's not the kid himself who's not improving, it's just that everyone else around him is getting a lot better. As mentioned, kids have different grow spurts. In the beginning, a kid might be a lot faster and stronger than everyone else because of early growth, or just because he's a year or two older than most youth fencers in the area. During this time, he can see rapid improvements and get used to being one of the best at Y14, Cadet events. But once everyone else around him starts to grow physically to match his height, speed, and strength, it's going to look like everyone else are getting a lot better while he's "stuck". At this time, the kid also grows out of cadet events, forcing him to fence others who are just as fast and strong. I see this in other sports too, like basketball. A few kids get much recruiting attention in middle school/beginning of high school. But as everyone else gets better, all of a sudden they're not on top of the rankings in their class anymore. It's not that they're not good, or they haven't improved, it's just everyone else have gotten a lot better. As someone mentioned, things get better when the kid goes to college.

It can be very frustrating and it's hard to convince a kid not to get down on himself. 16-17 is the time when kids start to be able to think for themselves. Instead of just doing what the kid has been told to do in lessons, and instead of fencing with just muscle memory, he can start to see the reason behind different actions, and gain a much deeper understanding of the mental game behind fencing. To divert his attention from the frustration he gets from thinking that he's not getting any better, I suggest that he starts focusing on thinking for himself on the strip, setting up his opponent, and understanding what he's doing.

[stickhorse]

I am 16 years old, an epeeist, and I attend a private school. Even at a college prep school like mine, school pressures aren't a big enough deal to affect my fencing. If you're serious about what you do, then you'll get over yourself when you compete. And no matter how much I wanted to improve, I would never EVER consider homeschooling. To sacrifice a child's social developement which will affect them their entire life, for something they can do in a few years, is insane. I don't know what is affecting the kids you're talking about, but I have only gotten better this year.

[4qtrs]

Originally Posted by stickhorse

And no matter how much I wanted to improve, I would never EVER consider homeschooling. To sacrifice a child's social developement which will affect them their entire life, for something they can do in a few years, is insane. I don't know what is affecting the kids you're talking about, but I have only gotten better this year.

Stickhorse, homeschooling and/or independent study programs have evolved since their inception. Many programs are K-12 and have hundreds of kids attending.