Fencing for the blind

[GrimRiposter]

Greetings, everyone!

I wanted to post this out here and see what experiences others may have had similar to mine. Current, I am training a woman who is blind in epee. Thing have been going quite well. We have eliminated footwork for the time being and are doing all exercises and bouts from extension distance and (mostly) with engagement, although we are starting to work more and more with changes of engagement. I'm not sure if or when we will add footwork back in. The biggest problems there have been orientation in space and keeping distance.

I've done some research out on the 'net to try to find other clubs and coaches who have done work with the blind. I'm curious as to how you have made this work and what drills and techniques have worked or not worked for you. I'm certainly willing to share what I've done thus far with anyone who's interested.

Thanks!

Grim Riposter

[mrbiggs]

I don't know about coaches, but there was a blind fencer on the forums awhile ago. They haven't posted much, but you could try contacting them if you want.

Their screenname was "Daylight".

http://www.fencing.net/forums/members/1629.html

[Vince]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

...there was a blind fencer on the forums awhile ago. They havent posted much...

lol... that just struck my funny bone...

[Cookeit]

WHAT?!?!
I knew there was wheelchair fencing.
But blind fencing?
How do they do it?

[GrimRiposter]

As far as I can tell, based on the research I've done, there is very little blind fencing. I've found that a school for the blind in Massachusetts uses fencing in it's training for using the cane. Currently, I only have the one student.

I'm actually doing the training somewhat similar to wheelchair fencing. First off, I've eliminated footwork. I've had some trouble figuring out how to make it work well, so we're stationary at the moment. When my student and I drill or bout, we position ourselves such that our points are on each others shoulder in the on guard position. From there, it's just epee. Granted, the techniques are a bit different, but not by too much.

Most of the actions that I'm teaching my student are based around engagement or change of engagement. Except for variations on how I teach them, the actions are nearly all the same. Performing a feint is a bit different. It's done through an action on the blade.

When I bout with my student I use "blinders". Surgical goggles that have had their lenses blacked out. It's quite an experience, fencing when you can't see! A new and different challenge. We had one of my coaches directing and assisting. That was a great help. Even plugging in the epee before the bout became a challenge.

[Elendae]

My coach does eyes-closed drills with us, sometimes including footwork and sometimes stationary. Some of the things he's done- the coach places their blade in a certain position (high-line, low-line, etc) and has the student "search" for the blade, then bind, beat, etc when contact is made. Adjustments are made to positions as needed. In another, the student extends and the coach beats the blade. The student returns the beat, extends and hits. Alternately, the coach can take the student in a bind, the student disengages and hits. These are generally done with just as much (if any) movement as necessary. My coach talks quite a bit about the feel of the blade. There are subtle differences in feel when you touch the forte of the blade, as opposed to the foible. Teaching your student to pick up on this may help with distance. If they can tell which part of the blade they've contacted, it may help with the distance judgment. Hope this helps.

[GrimRiposter]

Thanks for the information! Some of those are variations on ones that we do now. Most of the cues that I give are done via the sense of the blade: pressure, lack of pressure, lost of engagement, etc.

The biggest challenge was detecting forward motion of the blade. We found that blades with "character", meaning very well used and notched, worked much better for that than new blades did. More tactile sensation when they're sliding along each other.

I'm actually planning on adapting what I've learned from working with my student into drills for my sighted students to perform much the way your coach has you doing yours.

[Elendae]

Originally Posted by GrimRiposter

I'm actually planning on adapting what I've learned from working with my student into drills for my sighted students to perform much the way your coach has you doing yours.

They're quite good teaching tools. You can also do footwork drills this way... each student picks a line on the floor, gets en guarde, then advances, retreats, etc. Stop them periodically, so they can see how far from the line they have strayed... or if there's an imminent collision. It's also good to have them stand en guarde and lean forwards, to the side, etc. to help them learn the balance of the position.

[Lady Riposter]

I'd like to throw something else in to provoke conversation. Having been the coach who was assisting the Grim Riposter when bouting with his student, I made an interesting observation: the compulsion to retreat can't be suppressed. Despite not being able to see the blade coming towards them, they both ended up moving backwards, putting themselves out of distance. They were supposed to be fencing from a stationary position, so, in theory, the distance should never have changed.

Does anyone have an idea of how they can tell they're out of distance and fix it? As much as I'd like to say that just missing their target should do it, in the early stages it doesn't seem to.

[Elendae]

Was there any blade contact? Perhaps the feel of rushing air? Maybe paranoia about getting hit?

It is possible to suppress the urge to retreat. When I fence, I am stationary most of the time. If I don't have to move, it's better for me if I don't. I will sometimes lean to avoid a touch, or try to make it a double. Learning not to retreat or even lean back takes time and a measure of confidence in your defensive capabilities (I'm still working on that). If you do want to eventually transition this student to fencing with movement, you may not want to discourage the movement now; just stress doing as little moving as possible.

[firstblood]

I had a teammate try this in the 70's. She used rope to outline the strip and put a bell at the tip of the blade to let the fencers hear. She was ahead of her time...

[Rick Thompson]

Just ran across this post - hope my input is not untimely.

My first coach, Charlie Thompson (no relation, as he is quick to point out!) taught fencing to the Blind for a while.

I adapted some of the things he related to me to "sightless drills," also, and they're wonderful aids to my fencers.

But, to the point.... the idea of ropes on the side is less than perfect because blades can become intangled.

Charlie mentioned that, in his system, the edges of the strip were raised, so that a fencer could detect the boundary. Not so much that they would trip over it or turn an ankle, however. (I don't know what he did with the rear of the strip, or the warning zones.)

The referee must watch for when the fencers are separated and out of distance, halt the action, and center them back up. Starting either in engagement distance (blades touching) or just out of distance is best. NOT four meters apart....

Also, the engarde lines must be moved closer.

Mobility was not limited, as the fencers must be able to detect and adjust the distance.

Technically and tactically, sighted fencers operate on the PRESENCE of the opponents blade for cues for threats and openings. Sightless fencing must operate on a tactile basis, and use both the TACTILE PRESENCE and the ABSENCE of the blade for cues.

For instance, two sightless fencers (A & B) engage their blades. Fencer A may advance and perform an opposition in four as an attack. This keeps the blades in contact, so he maintains knowledge and control of the blade and distance. Fencer B may respond to the initial prise and advance with a derobement and extension, which A would (in this case, walk onto). B is responding to the tactile action of the blade contact, and A must react to the sudden absence of the blade to avoid being hit in his preparation.

The tactile presence of the blades also helps the fencers determine the distance. I am certain that you've discovered this, as anyone practicing sightless drills will. However, it takes much practice to feel the difference between the opponent's foible and their forte....

Lastly, your idea of "blinders" sounds good. One of my fencers (some time ago) suggested covering the mask with dark cloth, but gave up the idea when he couldn't breathe... goggles or some type of eye patches (e.g. a sleeping mask) work pretty well.

Cordially,

Rick Thompson,
Coach, Palmetto Fencers
===================

[Phincer]

I was just reading this b/c it was an interesting subject and had a thought-
why not classify a blind fencer as having the same disability to move on strip as a fencer that was say, paralyzed or injured and had to use a wheelchair?

I know one wheelchair fencer that I believe was injured in an accident-and while he can walk around, his injuries are permanent and prevent him from moving easily on strip. He therefore fences in a wheelchair.

Why not the same thing for the blind fencer? If she is in a chair, she will know the general range of her opponent-and not have to worry about chasing someone up and down the strip and possibly losing her balance doing it.

You could practice in chairs positioned the same way the wheelchairs are-and if its easier for her, pursue the "chair" classification with the USFA.

[larkmaj]

Originally Posted by Phincer

I know one wheelchair fencer that I believe was injured in an accident-and while he can walk around, his injuries are permanent and prevent him from moving easily on strip. He therefore fences in a wheelchair.

Sounds like he probably can qualify for the 'chair' classification. As I understand it, you don't need to be completely immobile, or even wheelchair/crutch bound normally, you just need to be significantly impaired in your ability to do normal fencing actions. Many wheelchair fencers can walk.

[abortretryfail]

I found a video awhile back of a blind fencer. Another fencer assisting him was working on a "radar" type device built into the sword where the sword would vibrate increasingly as an object the sword was pointed at got closer.

The blind goggles training sounds interesting though. Wonder if it would really help develope better fencers.

[Asprin]

We do footwork with our eyes closed, its so we can work out where we are on the piste without having to look.

[Rick Thompson]

Well, wheelchair fencing exists as it does because of an impairment to mobility. Someone who is blind does not necessarily have a problem with mobility.

Part of the challenge to fencing sightlessly is the detection of the distance. While there is some small element of danger if both fencers were to lunge at the same time from a close distance, the same issue exists with sighted fencers.

The tactile nature of fencing sightlessly involves detecting the distance from the contact of the blades, along with other cues (listening for the opponent's footwork, etc).

I think that introducing sightless fencing without mobility would be a useful exercise, but the level of challenge would quickly peak. The extra dimension of movement adds a HUGE set of variables.

I do sightless drills with my students to improve their "sentiment de fer" (feeling of/for the blade). It helps them rely on senses other than their sight, both for blade actions and for distance perception. And, as discussed earlier, it introduces them to a different set of cues for reactions.

Rick
================

[Elendae]

Originally Posted by larkmaj

Sounds like he probably can qualify for the 'chair' classification. As I understand it, you don't need to be completely immobile, or even wheelchair/crutch bound normally, you just need to be significantly impaired in your ability to do normal fencing actions. Many wheelchair fencers can walk.

just curious... but how does one go about qualifying for 'chair' classification? Can they still fence as a 'standard' fencer once they have qualified?

[GrimRiposter]

Greetings again, everyone. Thanks to all who have replied thus far. Thought I'd give updates and clarifications to my original posting on this topic.

When my blind student fences against a sighted fencer, the sighted fencer will wear sleep shades or "occluders". These are basically surgical goggles with the lenses blacked out. Both are fairly comfortable and easy to fit under a mask. These bouts have proven challenging for everyone involved and are rather fun. I've had a variety of my students fence against her, ranging in skill level, height and handedness.

As an interesting departure from this, we have also had the same students fencing without the sleep shades. The results were not quite what I had expected. While my blind student didn't win any bouts, most were pretty close. The challenge lies in the fact that you can't play with distance. Everything is blade work.

I also have my sighted students do drills with their eyes closed. I've found it a great training method over the years. Working with my blind student is no different. It's just that every action is done based around detecting/performing actions on the blade or reacting to/creating absence of the blade.

We have also started to do footwork. The biggest problem has been moving in relatively straight lines. I found the idea of raising the edges of the strips interesting. Unfortunately, as our space is a rented multi-purpose room, we really can't do anything permanent to the floor. My student has the idea of laying out some rubberize carpet backing or something like it for us to move on. Then it's pretty clear where the strip is. The experiments go on.

I'm not sure about how she or any blind student would fit into the "chair" category. My system involves being placed on guard with the weapons extended either with the points on the opponents shoulder or at such a distance as neither fencer has the advantage. During my research I did find a school for the blind in the United States that teaches fencing as a part of their training. They have their own specialized rules and methods and do incorporate footwork. It looks very interesting and seems to work well for them. When I worked on my system, I just took epee fencing as it is and went from there. Apart from having foot movement being reason for a halt and return to position, it's almost no different than anyone else fencing epee.

Thanks for the information, discussion and ideas. Keep them coming and I'll keep this thread updated as we do new and interesting things.

[Rock]

One of my students in a college epee class is completely blind. Fortunately, he previously took a foil class that emphasized the classical concepts of 3 dimentional spatial geometry, proprioception, and tactile awareness and interpretation.
For epee, I have only the more experienced fencers work with him - beginners don't have enough knowledge and awareness to benefit. There are 22 in the class, so I have little time to work with him individually. I ask him to help me demonstrate new topics most of the time, so he does get a few minutes of my attention. His success in actions at high speed does impress on the rest of the class the importance of the logic and effectiveness the fundamental principles that they're supposed to learn.
When (as a treat) I ask a fencer to him, here's what I've come up with on short notice:
(0.1) The height of the sighted fencer and RH or LH is described, or felt with the blade by the blind fencer.
1.0 The sighted fencer is en garde with the rear foot against a wall. The sighted fencer may lunge (short or long), but the back foot must never leave the wall.
2.0 The blind fencer is en garde facing the sighted fencer on the fencing line (fencers' front feet lined up).
3.0 The fencers engage their foibles, and then the blind fencer does one retreat, so there is absence of steel.
(0.2) Behind the blind fencer is a soft tactile indicator - jackets on a rolling rack, a rope or cable on the floor, or in my case, a climbing rope hanging from the ceiling. With both fencers' arms extended, the blind fencer retreats once and the tactile indicator is placed at the back foot. In this case, any forward movement will place both fencers in scoring danger.
4.0 After 3 or 4 touches with eyes open, the sighted fencer must fence with eyes closed. The sighted fencer will briefly open eyes after every 3-4 touches to check that feet are still aligned, and will make an adjustment as needed.

Traditional French Army fencing master training (Joinville-le-Pont) included extensive training without sight. Maitre Delmar Calvert describes his training (in the 1930's) with 2 parallel strings. The unarmed hand kept contact with one string for directional orientation, and this allowed normal footwork use, but emphasized the importance of using the blade to search and assess a situation before using the rest of the body.
I'm going to add this string business at the colleges and at my club for training.

ps The fencers who've work with the blind guy have had their perceptions and thought processes changed so much that although "it's hard", they look forward to getting to fence him.