Knee Injury.

[Toedwy]

Gentlemen, Gentladies,

Last night during training I was bouting the coach and of course I injured my knee.

I went to lunge and placed my forward foot not at the nice 180 degree position to allow a nice knee bend; but, my foot placement was approximately 135 degrees, as I moved forward and bent my knee to extend I had a nice painful feeling in my knee

I know to work on footwork to help create muscle memory for future situations. However, are there any other suggestions to avoiding placing my foot at this angle while bouting.

Also, my typical healing routine is ice, motrin, elevation and compression. Any other strengthening exercises you have done to help heal up?

Thanks for any info.

[Chafunkta]

Originally Posted by Toedwy

I went to lunge and placed my forward foot not at the nice 180 degree position to allow a nice knee bend;

So you normally do a split? I'm not sure where you're talking about with this angle.

I assume you mean that you didn't get the preferred 90 degree bend at your knee in your front foot.

The 135 degree would mean that you kicked really far with your front foot and ended the lunge with a large obtuse angle on your knee.

I'd like to answer the question, but I think I need to know exactly what you did before I answer it.

[journalmom]

Originally Posted by Toedwy

I went to lunge and placed my forward foot not at the nice 180 degree position to allow a nice knee bend; but, my foot placement was approximately 135 degrees, as I moved forward and bent my knee to extend I had a nice painful feeling in my knee

I know to work on footwork to help create muscle memory for future situations. However, are there any other suggestions to avoiding placing my foot at this angle while bouting.

Also, my typical healing routine is ice, motrin, elevation and compression. Any other strengthening exercises you have done to help heal up?

Thanks for any info.

180 degrees??? Are you really talking about the forward knee? If you are, are you talking about before or after you put your foot down?

Without actually exmaining the knee, it's hard to tell what is you problem. However, from a general perspective, I can tell you this. Before you do any strengthening exercises, you have to STRETCH and STRETCH. Your muscle can not get stronger if you are not flexible. It just makes the muscles tighter and not stronger. First, you should stretch ALL of your leg muscles and hip muscles. Then, the core trunk muscels such as your back and stomach. Then, add the stregthening exercises to those muscles. If you can't stretch your legs out to lunge, you won't be able to get the stability in the knee as you put your fooet out there. You need Quadricep (important for knee strength and stability) strength and flexibity as well as the hamstrings. It's all about balance. Also, strengthen your lower legs which will give you better ankle support.

Most important factor in getting strong muscles besides strengthening is gaining flexibility.

RICE (rest, ice, compress, and elevate) is a must regimen for an acute injury. But also, mobilize the ankle and knee as soon as you can so as to improve the range of motion and to decrease fluid build up from inflammation in the joint. If pain persists or gets worse, consult a sports orthopedic doctor or a chiropractor (We treat all joints and not just backs).

Hope that helps.

[Toedwy]

My apologies, I will attempt to be more clearn...

As I lunged, I extend my foil-arm, I then move my foot forward. This foot was placed at an angle instead of pointing forward towards the opponent.

My graphical example below. the "0" represents my body,, the "|" represents my forward foot placement.

This is correct foot placement a lunge.

|
0


This is what I did, then I lunged

\
0




Now, after I placed the foot then lunged, the knee was not align with my knee . So when My forward knee was then bent, it was bending not in its natural bending position. My pain was caused by the straining of my ligaments in my knee due to the transversal force my knee was put under.

I just wanted some ideas of how to maintain good footwork position even in times of bouting where you don't think of form as often. I know the obvious answer is more inlikely practice practice practice so muscle memory takes over.

Are there any other ideas during bouting how to keep good form to avoid injuries?


ANd, has anyone experienced this kind if injury before.. etc.

thanks for any replies.

[journalmom]

Originally Posted by Toedwy

My apologies, I will attempt to be more clearn...

As I lunged, I extend my foil-arm, I then move my foot forward. This foot was placed at an angle instead of pointing forward towards the opponent.

My graphical example below. the "0" represents my body,, the "|" represents my forward foot placement.

This is correct foot placement a lunge.

|
0


This is what I did, then I lunged

\
0




Now, after I placed the foot then lunged, the knee was not align with my knee . So when My forward knee was then bent, it was bending not in its natural bending position. My pain was caused by the straining of my ligaments in my knee due to the transversal force my knee was put under.

I just wanted some ideas of how to maintain good footwork position even in times of bouting where you don't think of form as often. I know the obvious answer is more inlikely practice practice practice so muscle memory takes over.

Are there any other ideas during bouting how to keep good form to avoid injuries?


ANd, has anyone experienced this kind if injury before.. etc.

thanks for any replies.

Is this your right foot or left foot? In other words, is your foot pointing outward from midline or inward?

[keith]

Originally Posted by Toedwy

ANd, has anyone experienced this kind if injury before.. etc.

thanks for any replies.

SEE A DOCTOR, please, that could be your ACL. Or perhaps just a muscle strain. Assuming you have good health insurance see a doctor and fib a little. If not take two ibuprofen and you'll be right as rain, no worries.

So the key lies; You are an experienced/competitive sportsperson, no it isn't muscular, you get clicking and popping in the mornings etc.

Fingers crossed for the MRI to come back negative but if it doesn't you can get it fixed early.

[Fechter1]

Originally Posted by keith

SEE A DOCTOR!!!

Dangit, beat me to it...

If you have ANY pain still in your knee, go see a doctor (sports medicine doc).

Might also be your meniscus... Had several of those myself...

As for how to avoid this in the future, repetition, constant correction, etc. No quick/easy way to that. Don't put competition load on the knee until you've fixed it!

BTW, I was taught by my coach standing in front of me as I lunged, then slashing a sabre downwards just to the side of where my knee SHOULD have ended up. A couple of scratches (and a few drops of blood) later, my form was solid.

[Toedwy]

Originally Posted by journalmom

Is this your right foot or left foot? In other words, is your foot pointing outward from midline or inward?

This is my Right foot, inward towards midline of my body.

[Chafunkta]

Originally Posted by Toedwy

This is correct foot placement a lunge.

|
0


This is what I did, then I lunged

\
0

Ah, I got it now. Kudos on the use of character formatting.


When you are in enguarde, advancing, retreating, lunging, etc. you want your front knee to be over your front foot. You have to do this enough until those "weird" muscles you use for fencing get strong enough and the position with the knee over the foot is comfortable for you.

I find that some people don't rotate their hips enough towards their opponent, causing their knee to be off-line with the foot. When you're enguarde, try placing the front knee over the front foot by turning your hips. Don't force your knee to the side.


When you move in fencing, whether it be an advance, retreat, lunge, etc, you will go in the direction that your front foot is pointing. When you made the lunge with the 135 degree (as viewed from above) angle, your front foot was probably turned that way. Make sure you do your footwork with your front foot pointing straight forward.

Another thing that may help keep your foot straight is keeping your weight more on the outsides of your feet rather than on the insides. Your foot will have less of a tendency to creep in.

The RICE (rest, ice, compression, elevation) is a good technique to ease a hurting need. However, if you want to fix the problem you have to fix your footwork.

Hope this helps.

[Greg]

The March edition of Runners World Magazine has a section dedicated to knee injuries and strengthening exercises. It really paid for me to do strength training specifically for my legs every week to avoid a knee injury - they can really be debilitating.

[Toedwy]

Originally Posted by Chafunkta

I find that some people don't rotate their hips enough towards their opponent, causing their knee to be off-line with the foot. When you're enguarde, try placing the front knee over the front foot by turning your hips.

Oh, I never thought about the hip rotation. When I am in enguarde, advancing, retreating, lunging etc I thought that keeping my hips twisted was helping me become more streamline. For example, I thought maintaining this twisted hip will also twist my torso to not give my opponent more of a flat torso target. When I am twisted I was giving less of a target........... This is hard to explain.

"/" = represents my hips and torso birdseye view, and lets call this a 45degree twisting counterclockwise.
"|" = represents my right front foot. birdseye view

|
/

Your saying, twist less. To help keep the Knee and foot aligned?

[Chafunkta]

Originally Posted by Toedwy

Your saying, twist less. To help keep the Knee and foot aligned?

Yep. When you twist, watch your knee. When you twist it'll turn inward and you'll have that same transversal force hitting your knee.

I've never been an advocate for fencing "streamlined" for the very knee reasons you mentioned. However, I have been known to put a little twist/lean when my opponents attacks/ripostes. So, I'll understand some streamlined approach, but only when their blade is coming at you. When you're attacking or feeling out your opponent, fence with your hips turned toward your opponent more. Keep that knee over the front foot and it'll help with these knee problems.

[SSMSabreMN]

Alright, so a few weeks ago I had a simmilar injury except when my foot did that in my lunge, my leg reacted by straightening it out right before I put my foot down and I ended up hyperextending my knee.

I see my schools ATC every day for about 20 minutes to work on stretches and strengthening my knee. Some things you could probably do, lunges but keeping an eye out that your knee is bent but doesn't go past your toes. hold for 10 seconds before comming up. Do about 10 of those depending on how you feel. This is what she (my ATC) started me on about 48 hours after my injury. Anytime before that Ice 15 minutes on, an hour off, as much as possible to completely eliminate irritation/swelling/ etc. Also, after any work you do with your knee you're going to want to ice it to prevent swelling. Starting with light work like the lunges or squats (same as lunges, slight bend standing on the injured leg, knee not going past your toes, hold for 10 seconds before comming up. do about 10 in a set depending on how you feel.) If you start to feel any pain you should stop and go back to icing for the next day. As long as it feels good I'd keep this up after you've recovered. Knee strengthening is extemely useful and its already doing wonders for my fencing.


And although it seems odd I can give such specific directions, no worries, I've got some excellent creds! My dad is an ATC and my moms a PT, this is what they have me to every night for my knees and my school ATC has me doing every day during my free block.


Then, of course, nothing beats a better-safe-than-sorry trip to the doctor just incase theres some more injury. One rule to remember, smaller sprains will almost always hurt more than the large ones, which is why sprains can do such damage. I went around on a sprained knee last year not knowing I actually was doing more damage without really realising it.

Good luck on recovery!

[jfarmer]

Originally Posted by Toedwy

Oh, I never thought about the hip rotation. When I am in enguarde, advancing, retreating, lunging etc I thought that keeping my hips twisted was helping me become more streamline. For example, I thought maintaining this twisted hip will also twist my torso to not give my opponent more of a flat torso target. When I am twisted I was giving less of a target........... This is hard to explain.

"/" = represents my hips and torso birdseye view, and lets call this a 45degree twisting counterclockwise.
"|" = represents my right front foot. birdseye view

|
/

Your saying, twist less. To help keep the Knee and foot aligned?

Let your body sit a a comfortable angle across your legs. It's far better to have your body turned to face your opponent than to have your knee pointing off to the side. I teach my students that "best" engarde is leading knee directly over leading foot with foot pointing directly ahead at the opponent. Rear foot forming a 90 degree angle (right angle) to leading foot. Body is at a 45 degree angle across them. Of all these points, the most important is the placement of the front foot and knee. Anything other than straight ahead will cause problems in both your fencing and in damage to your body.

It's far better to have solid and effective footwork, that doesn't damage your body, than worrying about presenting a larger torso target.

As for recovery, you have gotten several good solid actions to take, the most important is to see a doctor and tell him what you did and what it feels like. Then you can work with him and a physical trainer to deal with recovery and preventitive actions. And get with your coach to work out a recovery plan and to fix your form.

John Farmer
Coach, Oak Ridge Fencers Club