FIE adopts USFA non-combativity rule ;)

[KD5MDK]

Well not exactly, but they're now in step with us in terms of not giving black cards:

t.87.5 and followings, application 1st of March 2007
.5 Individual events
a) When both fencers make clear their unwillingness to fight * during the two first periods of a
direct elimination bout, the Referee will award a warning (yellow card) against each of the two
fencers and will proceed to the next period, without the minute rest.
b) In case of repeated offence, the Referee will award at each time a penalty hit (red card)
against each of the two fencers and will proceed to the next period, without the minute rest.
c) When both fencers make clear their unwillingness to fight * during the third period of a direct
elimination bout :
i) if the offence was not committed during the course of the preceding periods, the Referee will
award a warning (yellow card) against each of the fencer, and will proceed to the last minute * of
the time allowed for the bout ;
ii) if the offence was already committed during the course of the preceding periods, the Referee
will award a penalty hit (red card) against each of the fencer, and will proceed to the last minute *
of the time allowed for the bout.
This last minute*, which will be fenced in its entirety, will be decisive and will be preceded by a
drawing of lots to decide the winner should the scores be equal at the end of the minute.
6 Team events
a) When both teams make clear their unwillingness to fight * during a team match, the Referee
will award a warning (yellow card) against both of the teams and will proceed to the next bout.
b) In case of repeated offence, the Referee will award at each time a penalty hit (red card)
against both of the teams and will proceed to the next bout, and this up to the last bout.
c) When both teams make clear their unwillingness to fight * during the last bout :
i) if the offence was not committed during the course of the preceding bouts, the Referee will
award a warning (yellow card) against both of the teams, and will proceed to the last minute * of
the time allowed for the bout ;
ii) if the offence was already committed during the course of the preceding bouts, the Referee
will award a penalty hit (red card) against both of the teams, and will proceed to the last minute *
of the time allowed for the bout.
This last minute*, which will be fenced in its entirety, will be decisive and will be preceded by a
drawing of lots to decide the winner should the scores be equal at the end of the minute.

The only thing ambigious here is whether or not the "yellow card" is the same as the ones you would get for an ordinary offense. Downunder has argued it isn't and I can see his point with this wording, although I don't support it.

Criteria for non-combativity are also defined:

Clear unwillingness to fight (non-combativity) *
If two of the criteria below are combined, there is unwillingness to fight :
1. criterion of time : one minute of fight without hit
2. absence of iron contact
3. excessive distance (superior to the distance of a step-forward-lunge)[/

That's very interesting.

[oiuyt]

Interestingly, when non-combativity is called for the first time in the last period/encounter the bout is advanced to the final minute, but without drawing of lots. Which would seem to imply that the final minute in that case is not necessarily decisive and overtime can still occur.

Also new definition for what it is that should dramatically reduce these calls (close to back to what we had with passivity). Score a hit each minute and periodically clang blades and you're good. Or stay relatively close to each other and periodically clang blades and you don't even have to score a hit.

-B

[Chafunkta]

So if one fencer already has a yellow (say, for covering target), and then the two fencers become "non-combatants," does the referee give a yellow to the fencer without any infractions and a red to the one that covered target?

I think this is what KD5MDK was getting at, but I don't know if the ambiguity was ever cleared up by the USFA or FIE.

[edew]

I would assume so for an individual bout.

In the team match, would that apply? Is the team yellow equivalent to a yellow to all individuals of the team?

[KD5MDK]

In the USFA, yes. Because we apply rules sanely.

Edit: I was replying to Chafunkta, not edew.

[Goldgar]

Interestingly, when non-combativity is called for the first time in the last period/encounter the bout is advanced to the final minute, but without drawing of lots. Which would seem to imply that the final minute in that case is not necessarily decisive and overtime can still occur.

That's not the way I read the post. I took the bit saying

This last minute*, which will be fenced in its entirety, will be decisive and will be preceded by a
drawing of lots to decide the winner should the scores be equal at the end of the minute.

to apply to all cases of noncombativeness in the final period.

[notalent]

I'm looking forwad to the return of the epic 1-0 epee matches.

Interestingly, when non-combativity is called for the first time in the last period/encounter the bout is advanced to the final minute, but without drawing of lots. Which would seem to imply that the final minute in that case is not necessarily decisive and overtime can still occur.

Also new definition for what it is that should dramatically reduce these calls (close to back to what we had with passivity). Score a hit each minute and periodically clang blades and you're good. Or stay relatively close to each other and periodically clang blades and you don't even have to score a hit.

-B

[notalent]

Good thing it says hit and not score. Foil can go lengthy periods with no scores

[oiuyt]

Good thing it says hit and not score. Foil can go lengthy periods with no scores

French version of the letter:

1. critère de temps : une minute de combat sans touche

Judging from the way the word is used in the (french version of) the rulebook, "touche" refers to both valid and non-valid hits.

-B

[IanSerotkin]

Clear unwillingness to fight (non-combativity) *
If two of the criteria below are combined, there is unwillingness to fight :
1. criterion of time : one minute of fight without hit
2. absence of iron contact
3. excessive distance (superior to the distance of a step-forward-lunge)[/

So if my opponent and I stand at regular distance and hold our blades together, we cannot be called for non-combativity since we avoid #2 and #3? Even if we stand like that for the entire three periods of a DE bout? Awesome.

[oiuyt]

Makes for stellar television, doesn't it.

-B

[peet]

Non-combativity is the yappy little dog of the fencing rules:

Annoying, can't make up its mind, can't sit still, makes lots of noise & trouble at inconvenient times, and piddles on the carpet if you look at it wrong.


-p

[larkmaj]

I was going to say that the yellow card is a normal yellow card (except in team matches, where it carries over) but with the way the rule is worded I would be more tempted to go the other way. Again with the clear and concise rules.

[downunder]

I was going to say that the yellow card is a normal yellow card (except in team matches, where it carries over) but with the way the rule is worded I would be more tempted to go the other way. Again with the clear and concise rules.

Internationally it is an Ungrouped Yellow Card, so a further Group 1 offence produces a 2nd yellow card.

Not sure what the US does.

[oso97]

Internationally it is an Ungrouped Yellow Card, so a further Group 1 offence produces a 2nd yellow card.

Citation?

[carlos]

Internationally it is an Ungrouped Yellow Card, so a further Group 1 offence produces a 2nd yellow card.

Not sure what the US does.

Using the September, 2006 USFA rules (the most recent posted), I see nothing about an ungrouped yellow card. (in t.87 or elsewhere) Is this new? When was it issued?

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Makes for stellar television, doesn't it.

Two fencers, mano-a-mano, blades pressed together....what could make it perfect Sergio Leone TV?

Visor Masks!!

Think of the acceleratingly paced eye close-ups, the beads of sweat dripping across fevered brows...

Visor Masks!

[downunder]

Citation?

The penalty chart, and that i was told this by my colleagues in the UK and Australia, two of which refereed at Torino last year.

edit: http://www.britishfencing.com/Attach...rningsheet.pdf

[carlos]

Ah-ha, the penalty chart issued by the USFA is different from the one from BFA.

[downunder]

Ah-ha, the penalty chart issued by the USFA is different from the one from BFA.

Thats because you guys play to a different set of rules, as already discussed.