Promoting NCAA fencing?

[Padawan]

Ok, in case I haven't found the thread, which is a possibility. Who responsibility is it to promote and develp NCAA fencing? Who is charged with trying to get fencing as an NCAA in colleges throughout the USA? Who is charged with trying to help fencing clubs at colleges (who wish to ) into a NCAA status? Who is in charge of helping out when the fencing community is surprised by another college dropping it's NCAA fencing program? Thanks for the help.

[Craig]

Ok, in case I haven't found the thread, which is a possibility. Who responsibility is it to promote and develp NCAA fencing? Who is charged with trying to get fencing as an NCAA in colleges throughout the USA? Who is charged with trying to help fencing clubs at colleges (who wish to ) into a NCAA status? Who is in charge of helping out when the fencing community is surprised by another college dropping it's NCAA fencing program? Thanks for the help.

Typically it is the college programs who work through the AD and athletics budgeting office to maintain the status of the programs and not anyone in the USFA.

In terms of college programs, good realtions with the Athletics Director of the individual college or university is a must. Each AD has slightly different requirements for granting varsity status to a college club program, but all require a track record of growth and participation at the club/IM level for 3 to 5 years before they will even consider adding a sport, and even then it's difficult since the athletic budgets are pretty much a zero-sum game. In order to get one program in, you have to cut another out - so you have to both sell one program and sell cutting another.

There are many forum members who fence for or coach in NCAA and college IM programs and they have probably done a lot more leg work on this kind of thing and can give feedback.

Craig

[noodle]

Ok, in case I haven't found the thread, which is a possibility. Who responsibility is it to promote and develp NCAA fencing? Who is charged with trying to get fencing as an NCAA in colleges throughout the USA? Who is charged with trying to help fencing clubs at colleges (who wish to ) into a NCAA status? Who is in charge of helping out when the fencing community is surprised by another college dropping it's NCAA fencing program? Thanks for the help.

if you're asking if there is one person who is charged with promoting and growing fencing in the NCAA world, then no, there isn't any single person like that, as far as i know.

[DHCJr]

As noodle says there is no one person. You could say there is one thing that is responsible for NCAA fencing and that is the Olympics. There is a minimum number of schools with NCAA teams for the NCAA to have Nationals and to continue recognizing the sport. Fencing has been below that minimum for many many years. There is only one thing that keeps fencing in the NCAA and that is a little known rule that if a sport is part of the Olympics then the NCAA will sponsor it. If the Olympics ever drops fencing you won't have to ask that question as there won't be NCAA fencing.

That doesn't mean that a sport has to be a NCAA sponsored sport. Archery decided they did not want to be part of the NCAA and have their own collegiate nationals.

[oiuyt]

Schools/Club Committee
Responsible for expanding programs in schools and the participation of school-aged athletes in club activities. Tasked with developing and writing up a description of possible interaction between schools and clubs to present to the Board in Feb. 2006
Chair: TBD
Members: Barbara Lynch
Jerry Benson
Iana Dakova
Alex Ripa
Alex Ryjik
Buzz Hurst
Rebecca Schneider
Staff Liason: To be named

I do not recall the mentioned description being presented last year.

This committee is mostly aimed at HS participation, I believe, but is the closest the USFA has to people aimed the direction you're asking about.

Other than that I believe it just falls into a non-high priority catchall basket of things Michael Massik has to do. In which case I suspect it's most reactive involvement -- if a club trying to elevate status comes to the USFA they may get what support is available and likely letters of support; if a varsity program is being eliminated (Rutgers and JMU this year) they'll likely get letters of support, although reactive work in cases such as those is extremely likely to be too late.

While we have the discussion open, what steps or programs would people like the USFA to be taking/doing in order to further support NCAA fencing (and the expansion/retention thereof)?

Anyone have any idea of what type of support similar small-number, non-revenue, sports (wrestling, men's gymnastics, shooting, skiing, etc.) get from their national federations?

-B

[DHCJr]

A good find oiuyt, but as you said and from the description it looks like it is to promote school clubs not NCAA teams. Maybe the USFA because it would take a miracle to get the NCAA teams up to the minimum, they are going for a more achievable goal.

[oiuyt]

I think the "clubs" referred to is private clubs, rather than non-varsity scholastic organizations.

I think the "schools" refers (primarily or wholy) to HS and lower schools, rather than post-secondary educational institutions, unfortunately.

I think this committee, assuming it's currently functioning, is aimed at getting USFA fencers into school programs and school fencers into USFA clubs, ideally benefiting both, as well as improving relationships between the two, rather than having them be competing for the same students (or students' time).

-B

[clonardo]

Who needs the NCAA? Seriously- collegiate club fencing is growing at such a fantastic rate that dealing with the rules, regulations, and oversight associated with being an NCAA team seems almost foolish. Sure, the money would be nice, but there are plenty of underfunded NCAA programs too.

As a collegiate club, we're student-run, and still funded by the University. We've talked with the athletics department here about eventually going NCAA, but in their attempt to mainstream Stony Brook, they're actually cutting back in all areas that aren't football or basketball. That, plus an accounting error a few years back prohibits our school from adding any NCAA sports for another five years or so..

[prototoast]

Who needs the NCAA? Seriously- collegiate club fencing is growing at such a fantastic rate that dealing with the rules, regulations, and oversight associated with being an NCAA team seems almost foolish. Sure, the money would be nice, but there are plenty of underfunded NCAA programs too.

As a collegiate club, we're student-run, and still funded by the University. We've talked with the athletics department here about eventually going NCAA, but in their attempt to mainstream Stony Brook, they're actually cutting back in all areas that aren't football or basketball. That, plus an accounting error a few years back prohibits our school from adding any NCAA sports for another five years or so..

Once you go NCAA, you can never go back.

[KD5MDK]

Tell that to Rutgers.

[Wafath]

Who needs the NCAA? Seriously- collegiate club fencing is growing at such a fantastic rate that dealing with the rules, regulations, and oversight associated with being an NCAA team seems almost foolish. Sure, the money would be nice, but there are plenty of underfunded NCAA programs too.

NCAA puts money into the sport. I don't know what the min, max & average amount clubs & varsity programs get, but once a school is willing to pay anything for a coach, they probably spend several times more on fencing than a school would to a club sport. I suspect that there are very few clubs that get more funding than the cheapest varsity fencing program.

Would fencing survive without NCAA? Almost certainly. But I just don't see how it would help anyone.

W

[DHCJr]

NCAA puts money into the sport. I don't know what the min, max & average amount clubs & varsity programs get, but once a school is willing to pay anything for a coach, they probably spend several times more on fencing than a school would to a club sport. I suspect that there are very few clubs that get more funding than the cheapest varsity fencing program.
W

The last about 10 years of Long Beach State NCAA program probably got less than a lot of clubs. $25 per person up to 20 fencers and the funding was through the Recreation department, not the Athletic department. The coach only got a salary for teaching the regular classes, not for coaching the team.

Most of our funding came from Television. Not in the regular sense. We were paid for being the part of a 'live studio audiance'. If your group can guarantee at least 50 bodies, the studios will pay for your group to go.

The NCAA did pay for any fencer who made it to the Nationals and the coach. There were at least 2 or 3 every year who did go to nationals, but the money didn't come from the school.

In fact the coach sells snacks at the Orange Coast meets to pay for some of the equipment for the classes. CSULB does not go out of their way for fencing.

[Craig]

In fact the coach sells snacks at the Orange Coast meets to pay for some of the equipment for the classes. CSULB does not go out of their way for fencing.

Several NCAA fencing programs get funds for the program by working concessions or clean up at the football and basketball games.

The other way to secure funding is to set up an endowment for the program. Something that some programs already have or are working on.

Craig

[Wafath]

The last about 10 years of Long Beach State NCAA program probably got less than a lot of clubs. $25 per person up to 20 fencers and the funding was through the Recreation department, not the Athletic department. The coach only got a salary for teaching the regular classes, not for coaching the team.

I stand corrected.

Of course, that does lead us back to the original question. If your level of funding is the same, club or varsity, why do varsity? I am not asking this question rhetorically; I would think that not having to put up with byzantine NCAA rules might be worth it.

W

[Craig]

I stand corrected.

Of course, that does lead us back to the original question. If your level of funding is the same, club or varsity, why do varsity? I am not asking this question rhetorically; I would think that not having to put up with byzantine NCAA rules might be worth it.

W

The spiffy letter jacket and status of saying you were on a varsity NCAA team. (so, basically ego stroking - but it looks good on resumes too) Aside from that, you do get access to more training resources if you are NCAA.

- and yes, I do have both of my letter jackets and other varsity awards from UNC. (Light jacket 1st year, dark jacket 2nd yr, blanket 3rd, and plaque 4th)

Craig

[DHCJr]

I stand corrected.

Of course, that does lead us back to the original question. If your level of funding is the same, club or varsity, why do varsity? I am not asking this question rhetorically; I would think that not having to put up with byzantine NCAA rules might be worth it.

W

I mentioned one item. If some fencers and the coach want to go to the club Nationals, who pays? If you qualify for the NCAA nationals, the NCAA pays. Now each conference is probably different, but it didn't make a lot of difference if you were club or NCAA as far as regulations were concerned. The conference required all fencers had to be eligible by NCAA standards. Even schools had to have their NCAA eligibility official check on their eligibility. This got even more stange as their are different eligibility rules for each level of school. So a school that had an NCAA team that was a division 3 school had less requirements than a club team from a division 1A school.

Also if you do well at the NCAA's a NCAA All-American looks a lot better than a club National Championship.

But the truth be told, we remained NCAA out of stuborness of the coach. NCAA rules are a hassle.

[CvilleFencer]

Also many schools nowadays have additional resources for NCAA student athletes that are not available to clubs. Examples would be no-cost medical car, trainers/gym memberships, free tutors and additional support staff just for Student Athletes. Primarily geared for knuckle dragger sports granted, but if you are NCAA you can take advantage of them.