Picking a College fencing-wise - for the non-student!

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!


The thread on how to choose a college - for those becoming freshmen - has been done several times now, but I propose a twist on it.

If you are seaching for a job at a College/University, what kind of place should you choose - provided that the job is not fencing coach?

As a beside: In Sweden, all fencing clubs (and all other sports clubs, for that matter) at places of higher education are open to both students and employees. Furthermore, Universities are forbidden to admit, or give stipends to, students on anything else than grade average and a few other quantifiable scholastic criteria. In most cases, Universities do not handle the admittance process themselves at all - that is done by a national agency dedicated to that specific end. Therefore, University sports clubs here are generally run-of-the-mill, quality-wise. (Personally, I have been on the University (floorball) team while employed as a PhD. student. Our team was not so shabby either, we were top-100 out of the about 1300 clubs in the nation.)

OTOH, the case is quite different in USA, where University sports teams are a source of great local pride, involve serious money, have paid coaches, and are seen as a tool in obtaining the best possible freshmen possible. Therefore, many University sports teams focus on the high-level athlete, which cuts out most of the employees.

If, however, you are a fencer who is looking for a University job and want to be able to fence at/for the University - and am willing to base employment desicions partly on this - what kid of places should you look for? If you are a really good fencer, and want to fence for the University, what kind of place would simultaneously let an employee be on the team and be able to offer good competition, both within the team and in the meets? One way would be to search the webpages of each and every US. University, but since this would be quite time-consuming, I am wondering if there might be a faster way of finding good candidates.

Not that the answers are of any immediate real importance to me, but I am curious.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Wafath]

I think your question implies a missunderstanding of the situation at US colleges. There may be exceptions, but as a rule, assume that faculty and staff may not fence for or train with varsity programs, except as a coach.

Clubs (which may co-exist with varsity programs) would probably allow and encourage faculty to participate. However, most of these clubs will focus their coaching (if any) on new students. Also, if the club competes in any intercollegiate matches, assume that a faculty member may not fence on the team.

However, a faculty member would be allowed to fence on a USFA team.

At the university I coach at, sports clubs are open to all faculty, staff and students. We are encouraged, however, to join conferences & meets that are intercollegiate and limited to students only (or even undergrad only). It has been hinted that the sports clubs administrator may suspend any club that does not contain at least 50% students.

So, a hypothetical professor may train with us, and may represent us at USFA meets, but would not be allowed to compete on the team that does intercollegiate matches.

If you wanted to work for a university while developing as a fencer, your best bet would be to work at a school that is near a private club, and join it.

W

[Jay Kominek]

As Wafath mostly pointed out, the club/team distinction will tend to be the important one. "Club sports" in the US are generally pretty open, "team sports" less so.

The fencing club at the University of Colorado is sponsored by the student club sports program, not the athletic department. So it is open to faculty, staff, alumni and family members, in addition to students. NCAAish teams are just limited to students.

So, I'd suggest that googling for "university fencing club" would be the most effective way of getting an appropriate list. Maybe toss in the name of the state you're interested in.

What resources a club would have for beginners probably varies quite a bit . My club will teach anyone who can get into the building legally and pay our fee. We figure faculty/alumni are fine folks to teach, as they're probably not leaving in four (or fewer!) years, so they'll be able to accumulate and pass on more skills.

[clonardo]

Your best bet is to not look at the big fencing schools with NCAA teams (Penn State, OSU, the Ivy League schools, etc). You'd have better luck at a school with a club team, where the entire process is far more relaxed.

I was at a collegiate club meet this weekend, and there were a number of graduate students fencing. In this particular meet, it's possible that they would also welcome faculty members.

We have had graduate students active in our club team at Stony Brook University, in New York. We are a major public research university, and our fencing team is very large and active. Most of the graduate students we've had are novices, and don't really compete for our club.

[Greg]

From what I have seen, fencing clubs (not NCAA teams) are open to faculty, students and non-students. However, these clubs really vary from well run ones with actual trained coaches, electrical scoring equipment, adequate training facilities and training programs to one's run by students that are more recreationally oriented where people just get together to fence and training is pretty questionable.

[noodle]

From what I have seen, fencing clubs (not NCAA teams) are open to faculty, students and non-students. However, these clubs really vary from well run ones with actual trained coaches, electrical scoring equipment, adequate training facilities and training programs to one's run by students that are more recreationally oriented where people just get together to fence and training is pretty questionable.

lets not generalize that all student-run clubs are recreationally oriented or lack training. there are plenty of coach-run clubs that are in those exact same shoes.

[Greg]

You might want to re-read the post. I did not generalize that ALL were that way - just some and that is the truth.

[noodle]

You might want to re-read the post. I did not generalize that ALL were that way - just some and that is the truth.

re-read or not, i'm just saying that the post can be read that way.

[keith]

re-read or not, i'm just saying that the post can be read that way.

Depending on the size of the chip on your shoulder?

[noodle]

Depending on the size of the chip on your shoulder?

yeah.

edit: seriously, though, i'm just saying that when i read the statement, it reads to me that collegiate clubs without a coach are implied to be recreational or lazy in their training, and somehow having a coach makes that magically disappear or that its somehow automatically a level higher than not having a coach.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

From what I have seen, fencing clubs (not NCAA teams) are open to faculty, students and non-students. However, these clubs really vary from well run ones with actual trained coaches, electrical scoring equipment, adequate training facilities and training programs to one's run by students that are more recreationally oriented where people just get together to fence and training is pretty questionable.

re-read or not, i'm just saying that the post can be read that way.

The problem is that the post is set up so that the first is supposedly the best case, and the latter is supposedly the worst case. (except for the part where worst case is actually very competitive with bad training by a trained coach--- if they ever move on to a different program, they're almost entirely unteachable....)

Based on the behavior of coaches and teams at the variety of events with club teams, I would NOT indicate that trained coaches are necessarily better than student taught programs, because enough student coaches are better than trained coaches to make that generalization inaccurate.

That's ignoring any of the other characteristics of a club team.

[edew]

Peter G,

Also all schools with a NCAA fencing program (and even those without a NCAA fencing program) have a school club that anyone -- students, employees, persons not affiliated with the school in any way -- can join. For example, Stanford has a varsity team, whose members consist of Stanford undergraduates. They also have a Cardinal Fencing Club which uses the same premises, fences with the same varsity fencers (during the open club time, when the fencers may choose to attend on their personal time) and allows anyone from anywhere to attend. I have been a member of said club (when it was still called Stanford Fencing Club).

I have also been a member of Salle Csiszar, which used the same facilities as the UPenn varsity fencing team, practiced with the varsity fencers, as well as fencers who were not affiliated with the school in any way (David Littell was a Center City lawyer at the time, Andy Bullock worked in the area, Charlie Washburn worked in the area and others).

Basically, the school and the varsity team know they have a valuable commodity -- the fencing room -- that's available for use and revenue generation. Might as well use it as opposed to having it closed for most part of the day when the varsity team isn't using it.

So, if you want to be employed at a university or college, and want to fence, pick one that has any sort of fencing in it. UC Berkeley, for example, does not have an NCAA team, but does have a "combat room" where the school club team meets to practice. Employees (professors and staff) are members of the club and do participate, as well as people who just happen to live in Berkeley and surrounding environs.

Salle Diablo, the saber club in Arizona uses the ASU facilities for fencing. Most of the members are not ASU affiliated persons, AFAIK.

Same goes with OSU, PSU, NDU, CU, NYU (although in the case of the latter two, given that there are so many strong private clubs in the vicinity, there isn't much of a demand to use the CU or NYU facility, since most of the varsity fencers go to FC or AC or other clubs).

And lastly, if there isn't a club at the school, it doesn't take much to start one, if you're willing.

[swordsen]

The long term problem with student run clubs is that eventually the student running it leaves. And the next student may or may not be as good, as capable or as enthusiastic and eventually things die away. Witness Winthrop college, UGA after Dave Porter left and the students took over. (yes, I know there are fencers there now but they are rare and not often seen), Georgia Tech (same as UGA), or even Clemson that is in a resurgence now but was gone for along time. So I reccomend looking for a place with a non student running or at least coordianting things that will keep continuity.

That being said, any faculty wannabes looking for a place to go with a good club, Georgia Southern would be happy to welcome you.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

I think your question implies a misunderstanding of the situation at US colleges.

If you reread my opening post, it should be clear that I did not assume the statement below.

There may be exceptions, but as a rule, assume that faculty and staff may not fence for or train with varsity programs, except as a coach.

That was exactly what I was going for - in what kind of Universities would staff be allowed in varsity teams in positions other than coach, provided that they are good enough to take a spot on the team?

Also, if the club competes in any intercollegiate matches, assume that a faculty member may not fence on the team.

I was under that impression. However, what good end is served by such a policy?

At the university I coach at, sports clubs are open to all faculty, staff and students. We are encouraged, however, to join conferences & meets that are intercollegiate and limited to students only (or even undergrad only). It has been hinted that the sports clubs administrator may suspend any club that does not contain at least 50% students.

Again: Why this 50% rule? Furthermore, does the sports club administrator do anything in order to monitor the compliance with the rule? Would it not be quite easy to breach it, simply by only reporting some non-students? Do they go around in training halls counting people?


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[MyrddinsPrecint]

That was exactly what I was going for - in what kind of Universities would staff be allowed in varsity teams in positions other than coach, provided that they are good enough to take a spot on the team?

In my understanding, and the rumblings of other people on this thread--- No varsity team. Some may allow you to use the facilities during times that are not varsity practice, and if you're really good (and by this I mean "better than every member of the varsity squad) you might be invited to fence with the team during practice sometimes..... But you can't have a varsity spot on the team due to the NCAA restrictions, end of story. Club sports are a bit more forgiving in terms of inclusion, but the conferences still usually stipulate "students".

I was under that impression. However, what good end is served by such a policy?


Again: Why this 50% rule? Furthermore, does the sports club administrator do anything in order to monitor the compliance with the rule? Would it not be quite easy to breach it, simply by only reporting some non-students? Do they go around in training halls counting people?

The point is a competition of college students, not a competition of Random People. This is important to some people, but not important to others. Based on allowing staff to fence, then (in most cases), every coach would be able to fence. In many cases, due to age/physical fitness etc, this wouldn't make a huge difference in the college circuit---- It would make things a bit more interesting, but often wouldn't change things........ But then there's the odd coach who is still actively training and still getting national results.

Y'know, Brad Baker.

We don't have the 50% rule, but I imagine it's because many of these things are funded through student activities money, so there need to be enough students interesting. But that's just a guesss.

[Wafath]

That was exactly what I was going for - in what kind of Universities would staff be allowed in varsity teams in positions other than coach, provided that they are good enough to take a spot on the team?

Varsity: None. Why? See the NCAA rules. Why do we have the NCAA rules? Because universities cheat.

I was under that impression. However, what good end is served by such a policy?

It is not an exhaustively thought-out policy, but more something we do because it seemed like a good idea at the time, and we have not had good cause to reconsider. But, fairness of play is a major factor. Another factor is that if I go to university and tell them "Hey, we just beat Big State University.", they will be pleased. If, on the other hand I were to tell them that I just beat Bob's Private Fencing Club, they will look at me funny. Ignore the fact that BSU may not know which end of the weapon to hold and that BPFC has someone in the top ten of every points list there is, to a university administrator who knows nothing about fencing, they would rather be able to tell their boss about beating other schools.

Also, USFA rules regarding what kind of competitions their members may participate in may be a factor.

Again: Why this 50% rule? Furthermore, does the sports club administrator do anything in order to monitor the compliance with the rule? Would it not be quite easy to breach it, simply by only reporting some non-students? Do they go around in training halls counting people?

50% rule because our funding is significantly paid for by the student activities fee. If we are not mostly students, then we are no longer serving the interests of students. This is not a single practice number, but a long term trend.

The administrator does not count, but requires us to take attendance each practice, and make sure that no unapproved people are in practice. (Approval requires a waiver and confirmation by the administrator that the
presented name and university ID may use the facilities... ie, they are a student, faculty, staff, or paying alumni.)

If we break the rules, we loose our practice space, either for a few practices, or a very long time, depending on how annoyed the administration is with us.

In my club there is a post-doc, a university facilities staff member, and rarely a professor who show up to practice. I tell them all the same thing. They may do drills with us. They may fence bouts with us. But if they want to compete, they must do USFA, not intercollegiate.

It never has been a problem so far. I wonder if Europe and the US have different assumptions on what an intercollegiate fencing team is about?

So, if you were to become a professor at my school, yes you may fence with us. Yes, you may represent us at USFA meets. Yes, you may fence on our team for USFA team events (which we don't tend to do, because they are rare in the area, but your opinion for what the team should do is as good as anyones...). But No, you may not fence on our intercollegiate team, and No, I will not give you private lessons ahead of students, since my personal focus is on developing the intercollegiate team. (this isn't a huge loss for you.) I suspect that other college clubs will have similar policies.

The theory is that if you are a professor, you would have enough money to go to a private club and get your own lessons. There will be notable exceptions with collegiate fencing, but there is no easy way to find it.

W