Plastrons, bruises and scars

[mpshiel]

I'm sorry, I just don't understand the plastron rule, particularly in regards for epee, particularly in regards to mixed events.

1) It doesn't work - even with extra protection, you will still get bruised, often the size of silver dollars

2) Your thigh will get bruised worse, yet has less protection

3) If you are like me, you have five permanant scars on your lower leg which has the complete protection of....a sock.

4) If you are in a mixed tournament and you have a "flecher" then kiss your shoulder and neck bones goodbye (along with wearing anything in summer that doesn't get you referred to "spousal abuse" centers.)

Okay, I assume that guys who like girls who fence dig scars, or at least a lot of bruising. But why the plastron - we know it isn't going to stop the bruising, bleeding, scarring so why do women have to wear it or if it is for protection, why isn't it higher rated, or include better protection in things like breeches and....socks? Maybe Leon Paul's FIE stuff is crud, I dunno; I just know that the women I see get bruised. And I get bruised. (and if you get hit hard enough, even the rigid one form wrap-around breast protector won't stop the bruise, it will just make a really BIG bruise).

Anyway, to end on a happy note, what is the strangest thing someone has said to you about your bruises. Someone three days ago, looking at a certain overlaping cluster on the inside of my elbow asked me if I was a heroin junkie.

[CvilleFencer]

Best way to not get bruising is to get better distance... The plastron has nothing to do with bruising. The main weakness on a jacket (not counting the sleeve opening...) is the seem under the armpit. There is lots of lethal stuff around that area with very little bone or muscle in the way. The plastron is just to add another layer under your jacket should a blade penetrate the seem. In a well made plastron, you will notice that the seems of the plastron will be offset a fair distance from the seems of the jacket.

For the front leg and the shin, unless it is a very odd angle hit, you have a lot of bone and muscle in the way of major arteries and nerve bundles, so no extra protection needed there, at least from a safety standpoint. If you browse around the ball sports section of a good sporting goods store you will find both thin shin guards that fit under socks and padded shorts that would fit under the fencing pants. Both of them may be a good solution for you. Or distance drills!

[mpshiel]

I think I will use shin guards. Thanks.

I have found no distance drill that will save me from what I call "Trigger men!" As in those (usually lower ranked) super hyper fencers who have some kind of trigger in their brain which says, "Oh look, she is lunging, quick, let me lunge as fast as I can, a half second too late as hard as I can at her (insert body part here)" Point: me - Scar: me. Or as I told one guy last week who said, "That might have been a little hard." as the blood started coming up through the sock: "When your tip bends far enough to hit your guard during a lunge, you may not have the right distance."

[Phaeton]

Or...possibly...you don't have the right distance. If this is a recurring problem...it might not be who you're fencing.

[C.I.C.]

The main weakness on a jacket (not counting the sleeve opening...) is the seem under the armpit... should a blade penetrate the seem... notice that the seems of the plastron will be offset a fair distance from the seems of the jacket.

Seems you mean "seam."

[KD5MDK]

As CvilleFencer very accurately pointed out, the plastron is not to prevent bruising. It it to keep you from being skewered through the heart and lungs if a blade penetrates your jacket. I have myself seen a fencer get hit with a broken blade and have a nice hole torn in his 350N jacket. If he had not been wearing his plastron he certainly would be perforated.

[tbryan]

he certainly would be preferated.

preferated? Is that like a pris-de-fer in eight?

[CvilleFencer]

I think I will use shin guards. Thanks.

I have found no distance drill that will save me from what I call "Trigger men!" As in those (usually lower ranked) super hyper fencers who have some kind of trigger in their brain which says, "Oh look, she is lunging, quick, let me lunge as fast as I can, a half second too late as hard as I can at her (insert body part here)" Point: me - Scar: me.

Not to belabor the point, but as Phaeton mentions, distance is still a factor. When you are fencing someone like this (and there are a few at every tourney but they usually either drop the sport or improve) then distance is still your friend. In this case, distance with a second intention. Do the "trigger" action just short, pull distance and peg them in the arm (or parry, bind, transfer, whatever) as they fleche at you, maybe with an esquive to avoid a collision on the end. Of course if they do tag you with a corp a corp, get really good at falling down or staggering back and look hurt. A card for jostling in epee is basically the fencing version of an Emmy award 90% of the time...

[CvilleFencer]

Seems you mean "seam."

Foolish puppy, I meant exactly what I said. A joining of two materials on fencing gear is a state that can only be truly tested by a high velocity broken blade or stress. It might be appear at first glance to be a seam, but in reality it could be a seem or in a state of seeming to be if you prefer. Which is to say it is something that appears to be one thing and in fact is not. That implied state of being will be proven true or false when tested. Until that test, it is a seem. A fencing "seam" is actually our sports version of Schrödinger's cat.

FYI, this is a discussion forum, not a spelling bee. Harping on another members spelling will not win you many friends, especially when it contributes nothing to the conversation.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

There's only so much you can do, but you have two options: Develop tactics so that when fencing these people, you don't get hit too hard--- Or stop fencing those people.

Usually it's a matter of both. Unless forced, don't fence the people who bend their blades in two on you. But fence enough people with bad distance so that when you see them in tournaments, you don't get too badly hurt.

Most people will try to avoid corps-a-corps unless it's particular circumstances.... But I know someone who rather than try to step/lean slightly to the side/back up or any of those things will plant her feet and lean into it, and then get pissed that the other person ran into her.

If you're keeping good distance, keeping good distance, and then suddenly you see what needs to be done and you stop moving entirely, yeah, your opponent might get to close. Or you might be doing something entirely different.

But your only other option to "getting better" is politly declining to fence those people most of the time, which is rather valid.

[KD5MDK]

Which doesn't work at tournaments. But they should be getting cards at that point.

[oso97]

Perhaps there is a bit of blaming the victim here, folks?

I mean lets take a look at what she said...

I have found no distance drill that will save me from what I call "Trigger men!" As in those (usually lower ranked) super hyper fencers who have some kind of trigger in their brain which says, "Oh look, she is lunging, quick, let me lunge as fast as I can, a half second too late as hard as I can at her (insert body part here)" Point: me - Scar: me. Or as I told one guy last week who said, "That might have been a little hard." as the blood started coming up through the sock: "When your tip bends far enough to hit your guard during a lunge, you may not have the right distance."

This does not sound like an issue for distance drills, this sounds like an issue for refusing to fence such lowlifes. If its a matter of in the club, definitely something to take up with the coach (and inform him that if the behavior persists, you'll be taking your buisness elsewhere). If its a matter of in a tournament, inquire why a card was not issued (sounds to me like a textbook example of a vindictive hit). Be sure to cite the appropriate rule (I'll let you perform the valuable task of looking up the rule, its in the T section). And fence in different events as well.

[Pauli]

I have plenty of experience with bruises.
When I started fencing and simply to be considered as the total beginner but extremely eager to learn fast and for that to fence as much as possible, I never went home without any bruises.
Arms, legs, chest, you name it.
4 months after I started fencing I had my first big tournament and had well experienced fencers as opponents.
I was bruised from head to toe.

Why? Simply because I wasn't keeping distance and I wasn't parrying.

It doesn't take much to get bruised and it's a process all fencers have to go through when starting off with this sport. So I would assume.

And you learn to live with it. Oh my, so what if you have some bruises here and there.....
Then too, some people bruise more easily than others. Maybe you're someone who does.

As to the type of opponent - the once feeling like Zoro - all has been said and I agree to all of the below statements.

Enjoy fencing and don't worry about the few little blue dots, worse could happen.

[HDG]

If its a matter of in a tournament, inquire why a card was not issued (sounds to me like a textbook example of a vindictive hit). Be sure to cite the appropriate rule (I'll let you perform the valuable task of looking up the rule, its in the T section). And fence in different events as well.

A badly timed lunge, executed from the wrong distance -- even with too much force -- does not sound vindictive to me unless it was a deliberate late hit or intended to injure rather than score. I'll give you brutality, but not vindictive.

This just sounds like someone on the receiving end of hits from scrubs with poor motor control, poor distance and poor timing.

[KD5MDK]

Not vindictive, probably, but either "touch with brutality" or "dangerous, violent or vindictive action".

[Fencergrl]

I agree with both Cville & Oso.

Good distance has a lot to do with not getting bruised. Stepping back and hitting makes a huge difference with reducing how hard someone can hit you or if they hit you at all.

Having said that.... there are lots of fencers (often young male teens) who have no sense of distance, do punch hits and seem to think drilling their weapon into their opponent as hard as they can, is what the sport is about. Furthermore, they do seem to hit vindictively well after the first touch.

For these reasons I refuse to fence these morons anymore. I learned to keep good distance, but little else from them.

I am a woman, I have never come across a woman opponent who behaved in this manner... in Canada, women fence only in women's events. So what is the point? I rather develop my skills with fencing opponents that are similar to who I will fence in tournaments.

Furthermore, I've almost got seriously injured too many times prior to tournments. I will fence men, just not the guys who want to try and use excess force instead of skill to beat me.

mpshiel, you have the right to refuse to fence idiots in your club. I suggest you exercise that right. I also suggest you work with your coach on developing good distance and attacks while retreating.

[Asprin]

In the UK comps the genders are split but at my club there are not enough female fencers to do female poules on club nights. But this does mean we are used to fencing men and sometimes beating them it can help you to think creatively, I feel.

My clubs Xmas comp was going to only have four female sabre entrants so the poules were going to be mixed until more women entered.

[seven6ty]

The only time I wear a plasteron is when I'm forced to in competitions. Can't say that they've ever had any kind of benefit to me whatsoever.

I think your question on bruising is variable though. I practically never bruise. The only exception is on the rare hit that is hard enough to burst a capillary or something and I have subdermal bleeding. Those are the only kinds of bruises I ever really get. But yeah, then again I don't mind fencing in shorts either and routinely put my contacts in without washing my hands. What can I say, I live on the edge, yee-hawwww.

[mpshiel]

I like fencergrl's points and I have never had more than 1 bruise in a women's tournament, however, as I found out, that might be because no women can get into bruise me as my partner and a female foilest seem to get bruised a lot (the foilest comes in second usually so I can't think it is her inexperience here). I guess my problem here is that out of the two club available I attend, there are a total of 3 female epeeists, of which I am the only one who is there regularly. And of the guys who regularly attend, only one doesn't have what I would consider distance issues.

For example from last night - I had a guy who in 40 points did 39 fleches. Now, from my point of view, if I know (by his "triggers") when he is going to fleche, catch his arm on the way in, so my light goes off and his doesn't and in 40 points I have to rebend my sword ZERO times - it would seem I have appropriate distance sense (in that I retreat enough to give time to get the point). If he on the other hand has to rebend his blade between 15-20 times and gives 6 bruises including one the size of a fist - is that really my problem with distance? (I did a rough calculation after fencing him and determined that in the last 150 points at women's tournaments I lost 1 to being fleche, and I gained 2 by being fleched) I know I should use distance to get the point, but is it necessary to get the point and then continue to use distance in order to ensure that his lack of distance control doesn't bruise me as well? Is this like the defensive driving of epee - you aren't just responsible for your driving but for other people's bad driving?

As for female fencers, I don't know any in Canada but I know one I fence in the US who I know will bruise me, and likely I her since we are both the same hieght, and build (big) only I think she has stronger upper body strength and will physically dominate her opponent if you let her, so there is a lot of clashing corp a corp action (pretty much only with me) - she fences different than guys, but not like any of the other women since for example in close fighting, she will use her strong part of the blade (near her guard) against yours, and then simply use her upper body strength to simply push your entire arm aside with pure force to create an opening.

[the doc]

well, you have a few options:

1. when he fleches, take his blade in octave and stuff it home as hard as you can. this way you have control of his blade and he can't follow through to bruise you.

2. every time he hurts you, respond with a nice flat flick across the top of the arm as hard as you can. if he moans, tell him who started it.

3. point out the error of his ways. if he doesn't change, don't fence him again. sounds like it won't be your loss.