Beck/Barths "new" fencing book: Any opinions?

[CvilleFencer]

Hey all. I think this is a reprint that has been available for a while if you could read German, but I can't and just found out that it was out in English. It is billed as a comprehensive but dry text on the German method of fencing and the Beck system of lessons/technique. The full title is The Complete Guide To Fencing. I was wondering if anyone had read it and if so what you thought about it. It is available through the LP USA store at http://www.leonpaulusa.com/fencing/a..._Products.html

[eac]

Sounds to me like it would be interesting, but rather outdated, particularly for foil.

[rudd]

Bought, flicked through it, haven't read it yet. Looks good, very in debth and very coach focused. Covers long term development of the fencer. Once I read through it I'll post a review.

[Allen Evans]

The review of the book I read said that it was "dense". If by that, they mean incomprehensiable in spots, then I agree.

I'm still trying to decide if the book is so brilliant, I don't understand it, or the translation is so poor that I'm lost. There are a lot of circular sentences and awkwardly constructed paragraphs.

I'm about a third of the way through the book right now, and I'll have more to say when I'm done with it.

Allen

[chefencer]

The review of the book I read said that it was "dense". If by that, they mean incomprehensiable in spots, then I agree.
...

Phew! I don't feel quite as dumb now...
I would not describe it as a breezy read - It makes me feel like an English as Second Language student. I know there's cool stuff there, but it's hidden behind jargon/translation or zooming over my pointy little scrub-head. I did enjoy the historical introduction...

[piste off]

If Allen said it is difficult that is a concern. He has a good handle on the Beck system.

"Flicked through it", Rudd? Very funny.

Rick

[KD5MDK]

Maybe they should produce it in a Leob version with the English and German on opposite pages so you can take it to your local university for help with the hard parts.

[chefencer]

Maybe they should produce it in a Leob version with the English and German on opposite pages so you can take it to your local university for help with the hard parts.

Wouldn't they have to translate it into ancient Greek first? Talk about losing resolution with each successive copy...

[CvilleFencer]

Che or Allen, if either of you will be at the tourney this weekend, would you mind bringing the book and letting me flip through it? I think my best plan for getting the info I would want out of this book is to let Allen and Jill finish it, buy them dinner and get talked through the cliffnotes version and then hope for a written synopsis on Allens webpage!

[darius]

The writing is highly technical and very dense. The terminology requires some puzzling and re-reading, but once you figure out what they're trying to say, it's fine.

I can write in a more detailed fashion about it later, but I'd like to refer back to it before posting a "review", per-say.

The non-specific sections, about sports performance and youth training suffer the most from mistranslations - there were some pretty mangled word sequences which changed the meaning of a graph or sentence from the expected result.

The weapon-specific sections are pretty neat. It's nothing you haven't read before, as far as categorizing actions, breaking them down, and suggesting ways to work on them, but it's far more detailed than any other analysis I've seen.

darius

[Durando]

I can write in a more detailed fashion about it later, but I'd like to refer back to it before posting a "review", per-say.

Did you finish Darius? Care to share your opinion?

[darius]

Sorry, it might be a while - it was suggested by a mentor that I read "Motor Control and Learning: A Behavioral Emphasis", to greater understand the process at a macro level, and then head back into fencing-specific reading with that knowledge in mind.

darius

[Greg]

I have it and would not recommend it. As stated earlier, very focused on long term development. Pretty dry and lots of extraneous info (for me) on the history of German fencing back to when the country was divided. Some out of date material on nutrition and general fitness. I got another book by Simonean (spelling may be off) on fencing - mostly foil with a couple of pages on epee and sabre. It's pretty good for beginners to intermediates. Contains games, drills and strategies for group lessons.

[Allen Evans]

I'll have more to say in another month, after I read it again, but....

"Dense" in the initial review doesn't cut it. The book is even physically heavy. In fact, it might be the heaviest fencing book I own. it's printed on heavy paper stock. The text is at a comfortable type face, and there are a number of schematic diagrams, but few useful pictures. Lesson actions are illustrated by drawn figures which are too small.

Much of the language takes careful reading. It makes sense after you read it (slowly) two or three times, but some whole paragraphs don't scan right. Especially in the first chapters, which are heavy on motor learning and sports psyche, some of the paragraphs are incomprehensible, probably becuase the difficulty in translating sicentific German into English. Here's an example of one of the readable sentenses:

The athletic performance of a fencer is the complex result of the actions of a personality. Based on the performance capacity of the apparatuses and functions, the multifacted linkages between abilities, characteristics, and skills have an effect on the level of competitive performance, the attitude towards coping with the demand, and the individual ability to act.

The book also suffers from some none-standard (to a dumb American reader, anyway) terms, such as the phrase: "sweep motions/attacks" which seems to be a catch all for a variety of attack au fers, prize du fers.

The books is very strong in giving lesson examples in foil and epee on a variety of tactical situations. There were some fairly sophisticated and dense examples in these two weapons. In saber, however, the material was quite thin.

Would I recommend this book? For the fencing coach in foil and epee, it's certainly worth being part of the library, though I think there are better books out there -- in foil at least -- such as Ziemowit Wojciechowski's excellant Theory, Methods and Exercises in Fencing. For the coach, it paints with a broad brush how a National level sports program approaches the training of it's athletes, even if it doesn't give much concrete, step-by-step instuction.

For the foil or epee fencer, it might be a tough read, but there is a broad spectrum of information to be had if you're willing to dig for it. Again, in foil, there are better books.

For the saber coach or saber fencer, I would probably give it a pass*.

I intend to re-read this again, and I'll post about it again.

Allen

* Nothing close to Wojciechowski's or Lukovich's treatments of foil has been written for epee or saber. Why is that? For Epee we are stuck with Vass (a laundry list of blade actions, next to useless) and for saber, we have nothing at all. Why is this?

[oiuyt]

for saber, we have nothing at all. Why is this?

It's more fun to scream at referees (and fencers, for that matter) than write books?

-B

[Allen Evans]

Screaming as entertainment? That's just you, Oiuyt. What about those of us that are far quieter and more introspective?

Shut out in the cold, as always.

Allen

[tbryan]

Screaming as entertainment?

I thought that the screaming was a sort of meditation. Sort of a first step toward approaching sabre. Before you may touch the sabre, you must learn to scream. Only then can you be one with the weapon.

[darius]

What about those of us that are far quieter and more introspective?

Easy. They don't fence sabre.

darius

[Dr Epee]

Remember, grasshopper, only when you can blast these stones out of my hand with your scream, will you be judged worthy to fence sabre.