Coaches, how to handle defeated students?

[muaddib]

Coaches ....
At an Under 13 event this weekend, my best student, had a total meltdown...mentally that is. In his first round, he won a few, lost a few and was alittle down. I assured him that the few loses weren't important at this stage and that he had another round and that he would do better. As the second round progressed, he losed another bout and started getting depressed. I told him to forget the last bout and just focus on the next one. On a normal day at the club, he would have beaten most of these fencers. As he lost another, he was so depressed that I couldn't even talk to him. He just kept saying how bad he was and that he was going to lose. At this point, I stopped trying to talk to him and went to watch some of my other students. His father was with him, so I hoped that maybe he knew how to chear up his son. He preceded to lose all of his second round bouts and after the round was finished, he went home before the direct elimination started. I was upset the father wasn't able to help or that he didn't tell his son that he had to finish the tournament and not quit before the elimination bouts. I don't know what to say to either of them, so I just stayed quite.

Can anyone advise me on how I should have handled this situation? How to chear up or keep the confidence up on a student who is psyching themselves out?

I hope he can put this behind him, and train for the next event, but right now I'll be surprised if he shows up at the club.

Help needed....
Muaddib

[achilles_heal]

writing as both a former athlete and a coach of young kids, i would suggest focusing on the positive actions the fencer performed versus the overall result of winning or losing the match. this isn't a world cup we're talking about here, and fencers have to learn to lose - a LOT esp at that age as they climb up the various leader boards of the various levels of the sport.

a loss, or a bad tournament is an excellent opportunity to establish this concept in the fencer's mind, and viewing the fencer's poor actions - from a technical standpoint, not a mental one- as why he got hit, rather than why he "lost", is a good place to look at what may need to be improved.

also, with kids, one always has to be subtly aware of the presence of a parent, and note if a certain parent's presence seems to precipitate these "mental meltdowns." not that the parent is doing anything, but when a parent comes, they bring with them the full set of baggage from whatever dynamic exists in that relationship. of course, parents, at least one, have to come to kids' events, but if there is something going on there, it may have to be addressed.

good luck.

[Coldfire]

Something similar happened to me this past weekend. Only I was the person with the meltdown. All I can tell you is that if this was the first time this happened they likely don't want you to try and comfort them. I certainly didn't. I wanted to be left alone. Later that day and the next I started to feel comfortable about what went wrong and have now learned how to handle such situations and accept losing. If they truly enjoy fencing and want to get better they will listen to you advice, its jjust hard to try and learn so soon after a mental breakdown. Give them some space then help later.

[Allen Evans]

From 12 to 17 or 18 (mileage may vary) losses and wins at tournaments can take on significance complete out of proportion to their importance.

It is very difficult to reverse the downward spiral of a student that is “crashing” at a tournament. My own personal experience is that most young fencers don’t have the depth of personality or experience to look at the tournament as a whole while they are in the event itself. The coach can try to prevent a disheartening situation from getting worse (which might result in the student losing their temper and getting carded for an infraction), but often even that is beyond the control of the coach.

I find that most of the psyche repair work has to be done after the event is over. The student should have had some time to get past the shock of losing, and the coach should then talk to the student and reinforce any positive aspects that he or she saw. If the student is having trouble with one particular action or opponent, this is a good time to help them find a solution.

The coach has to emphasize that fencing is a process, not a random string of results. Only by investing in the long term is the student likely to see success. This won’t be heard the first time you tell the student this, but after a few tournaments, you can hope that eventually it sinks in.

Ultimately, the ability to continue to work in the face of poor results is the only way to become a strong fencer. It's not a talent that every fencer has, and it keeps more fencers in the "U", "E" and "D" catagory than anything else, I think. For the coach, this is a difficult skill to train, as often it goes against the personality of the fencer. The best coaches seem to find a way to help their athletes develop this skill. I'm still looking for that ability, myself. I've learned a few things (like giving the athlete some space after a tough tournament) but I'm still largely learning by trial and error.

Allen

[jBirch]

How many ways can you cook dinner?

*grin*

Motivators and demotivators vary wildly from student to student and even situation to situation. Here are a couple of general causes of "defeated" students:

1) An inability to perceive success.

2) Poor problem solving skills.

3) Externally motivated.

4) Uncoachable.

So what do I mean by all this and how will it help?

1) Students need realistic, meaningful and attainable goals with immediate rewards and they need them on a reinforcement schedule. Each of those qualities is important and many "defeated" students are a result of excessive pressure from the coach/peers/parents.

2) If a student doesn't understand how to become "undefeated" then they will never achieve repeatable victory. Crucial to this is the ability to analyze what went wrong and to find out the solutions to the problems that are implementable and measurable (so that the student can iterate around the problem). This is the primary place that the coach is of service: guiding and crafting these solutions.

3) Students that are externally motivated are those who need reinforcement from others to validate their experience. These students need to be constantly "reinforced" along the way so that they never get "discouraged".

4) Uncoachable students are those students who refuse to submit, with their entire effort, to the coaching they're receiving. These are the ones that fight with the coach and want to do it "their way", the ones that don't do their homework and the ones that just want to "be" good without "becoming" good.

I used to think that every student could become an Olympic champion if they put in enough work. I'm not so convinced now as I believe that there are "intrinsic" qualities to the student that can not be changed or moulded by anyone. The best coaches around me that produce the best fencers seem to simply attract high quality "raw materials" from which to craft their students. They then put these people in environments where they only have to provide the knowledge that the student is lacking.

Personally, I find that the best results are obtained by simply providing that technical knowledge and not worrying overmuch about the motivators. Instead of rushing over to the student and telling them what they did wrong, or rebuilding their ego with effusive praise, let them come to you at their own time and then work into the training regime the specific responses to the problems that are vexing them. The skill in the coach comes, I think, from choosing these solutions and properly crafting them into the student.

Hope this helps.

James.

[Fencergrl]

Individual sports (as opposed to team sports) can be hard on anyone's self-esteem, as there’s only yourself to blame for a loss.

Many kids have trouble with the amount of losing that goes on in fencing (especially in the beginning).

I find, putting things into perspective helps... I use the example of our last World Cup event. Over 400 of top fencers from around the world came to compete. Some of the very best fencers in the world.

What is the maximum number of fencers who won EVERY bout?... 4. That's it, everyone else lost at least one bout.

Next week, these same fencers will be somewhere else... and may lose. That is the nature of the sport, even the best in the world have to pick themselves up after a loss and move on.

Our loses teach us how to become better fencers and better competitors... if we let them.

[muaddib]

Thanks everyone, for all your advice. achilles, allen, james you all have a good take on the situation.

With most of my students, I have an ideal as to how much I can push, how much to praise, but with this one, I'm really at a lose. I guess I'll play it by ear right now and see how he acts at the club. I'll go back to basics alittle with our lessons and try to build more self-confidence in him.

We didn't act this way at the last tournament when his Mom brought him, so I'm thinking maybe the dad had a bad effect. Maybe I can very subtlely ask the mom to come to the next tournament. On the other hand, the parents probably already know the problem.

I wish I'd paid attention better in psych class years ago!
- Muaddib

[cl00bie]

Individual sports (as opposed to team sports) can be hard on anyone's self-esteem, as there’s only yourself to blame for a loss.

I have to disagree. Sometimes the other person is just better than you.

Many kids have trouble with the amount of losing that goes on in fencing (especially in the beginning).

It might be part of being a child. I know that our school encourages us to appreciate and compliment the skills of our opponent. Even when you're totally off your game, your opponent was still savvy enough to take advantage of it.

To me, this makes fencing much more enjoyable.

I find, putting things into perspective helps... I use the example of our last World Cup event. Over 400 of top fencers from around the world came to compete. Some of the very best fencers in the world.

What is the maximum number of fencers who won EVERY bout?... 4. That's it, everyone else lost at least one bout.

Next week, these same fencers will be somewhere else... and may lose. That is the nature of the sport, even the best in the world have to pick themselves up after a loss and move on.

Our loses teach us how to become better fencers and better competitors... if we let them.

Indeed. I learn much more from my failures than my successes.

[riceboy]

One of the things that has helped a number of the fencers at my club is the "just one touch" mind game. If a student is doing poorly, or believes that he is going to loose, sometimes reminding him that all he wants is one more touch helps. It lets them focus on something that isn't the eventual ending of the bout, but rather their individual performance in the next touch. Then if they get that one, then one more... and so on.

Not sure it'll help here, but it's always worth a shot.

[Coldfire]

Certainly a key to success in fencing (and any sport really) is just taking it one step (or in this case touch) at a time. If they are upset or worry too much about thye last touch they lost they will likely lose the next as they are fencing in the present and the focus of attention is elsewhere. They might also be worried avout the next touch if its a tied bout or if its la belle. The mark of a great fencer is one who can control his/her emotions and focus only on what is happening now and not worrying about whats happened or will happen next. Just fence.

[Fencergrl]

I have to disagree. Sometimes the other person is just better than you.

Yes... I realize that. I was speaking from the perspective of how the child feels. All too often, they get caught in a blaming spiral rather than looking at things more objectively.

Our role as coaches and/or parents is to gently direct the child away from feeling that they are lousy at their sport because of a recent loss. Our role is to help the athlete look at the losses as an opportunity to examine what needs to be work on.

Making them feel okay about losing is the first step. Sometimes all they need is to have a good cry or sulk or whatever.... getting all the pent up emotions out of the way allows them to get to a place where they can be more analytical.

Just prior to getting analytical, I find it is helpful to say something similar to what I discussed in my previous post. Then address what went wrong and how you can work to improve their technique or mental game.

If you do get analytical, when they are still feeling emotional, chances are you will be met with little success. With older athletes it's different... with kids and young teens losing can be very emotional for them especially if they have had success in their own club then do poorly in a tournament.

[Supermom]

The proper approach depends on the child. I have (or rather had, one's an adult now) two children who fence, and they each reacted to loss very differently. The elder one never stayed very upset about it for very long, simply saying that he didn't fence very well THAT DAY and that was the end of it. He accepted anyone's "you'll do better next time" condolences, listened to their critique of what might have gone wrong, and moved right on. The younger one (who is by far the more talented fencer), especially in his under-13 years, took losses very personally and took them hard. There was NO WAY AT ALL to comfort him. Anyone who tried got yelled and ranted at, me most of all For hours and sometimes days afterward, he swore he hated fencing and would never, ever do it again. However, he was never allowed to leave a tournament before he was done no matter how many pool bouts he lost, or what kind of temper tantrum he threw (and THAT is hard for a parent to take, seeing their child behave like that in public and knowing that other people with more docile children are thinking what a horrible parent you must be to have such a horrible child). But eventually he learned to deal with his anger and disappointment and frustration in more appropriate ways. He's much, much better today (although I still get yelled at from time to time, he doesn't yell at or blame other people much anymore). People who knew him as a little kid fencer are amazed at the transformation! Actually, some of the nicest fencers I know (off the strip) turn into Attila the Hun for about 15 minutes after a loss, and should be left strictly alone to cool down before being spoken to by anyone for any reason.

Also, parents get blamed for a lot of things that are really not their fault. This seems to be especially true of coaches who do not have children of their own. We put up with a lot from the more passionate participants in this combat sport, who often are among the best. I have been known to walk briskly away from a strip after my son lost a bout, but that was for the afore-mentioned "cool down" reason, not because I personally was disgusted that he had lost it...quite the contrary, although I could see how someone might misinterpret that. Even I, his mother, KNOWING that this blowup is but temporary and anything he says is caused by and tinged with bitter disappointment, find it a little hard to be yelled at and blamed for the loss because, say, I washed his glove before the tournament and it was a bit tight when he put it on and THAT was the reason he lost so many bouts, and it was all MY fault, etc., etc. ... Better all around to walk away for a bit (in the past I used to make a lot of unnecessary trips to the ladies' room, where he couldn't follow me, when times got tough!)

[RebelFencer]

I've always kind of felt that there are three kinds of people:

1) Are docile about losing (will probably not get far)
2)Go insane with rage/sorrow/whatever after losing and start bawling/yelling/blaming people (will probably also not get far)
3)People who are angry after losses, but use that to push their training (Ideal)

I find it hard to believe that you can coach a student to any of these three ends. You can encourage a specific one, but ultimately it is up to the student. One thing I have noticed about this sport, especially in the lower ranks, is that not many people have had any athletic background before beginning this. That lack of an athletic background, most noticeably in the college-age bracket, makes them somewhat devoid of knowing how to be competitive and what that means. So you'll get people who either as a defense mechanism or through genuine apathy will just not care about losing or winning, which limits how far they can go in any competitive environment. On the flip side there are the ones who don't yet have the capacity to deal with failure and have a meltdown with every loss, which also limits how far they can go in a competitive situation.

Of course these are two extremes and there are many different variations in between. As a coach I believe you have a responsibility to make the student want to be competitive and want to be better. Personally, I would rather deal with the meltdown scenario than the apathy one. At least that person cares on some level, all you need to do is teach them how to control and use that passion. If a hatred of losing drives you, then use it. But most importantly you have to be there after they've cooled down to ask them what they think they could've done better and what they think they need to work on more at practice, hold them accountable while offering some positive reinforcement.

Prime example: DFP used to have nuclear meltdowns not just when he lost, but when losing. He's fixed that this season and is fencing much much better and more consistantly. It's a decision he had to make, and it is paying off.

[Supermom]

Rebel Fencer said: "If a hatred of losing drives you, then use it. But most importantly you have to be there after they've cooled down to ask them what they think they could've done better and what they think they need to work on more at practice, hold them accountable while offering some positive reinforcement. "

I think that's how to do it too. It's a little harder with the youngest ones, and easier with the older kids, but overall letting them know (WELL after the fact if they are, as one of our veteran fencers often claims to be after a poor performance, "consumed with self-loathing") that they can learn from and turn the loss into a positive thing that will make them better in the future. I think a coach should not let them just swallow the loss or push it behind them without trying to extract that kernel of knowledge or wisdom from it before they do so. The coach can help greatly there. Then the loss turns from a completely negative thing into a more positive step forward into future competitions.

[achilles_heal]

you sound like a great fencing mom. your kids are lucky. i am not sure what you mean exactly when you say that coaches blame parents for kids' losses. i wasn't trying to make that assertion.

but sometimes one parent - and in every case i have seen so far it is the father - just psyches the kids out. sometimes it is overt berating, sometimes it is subtle, sometimes it is officious catering, arguing calls, a variety of things.

anyway i was just making a suggestion, based on a hunch.

losses are almost never parents' fault. ( i did see a girl lose on purpose 5-0, just to make her father go away in disgust, and he was really making a scene. she took her mask off and glared at him after every one light touch. i have to say that one was the parent's fault) most often, the other person is better or was that bout on that day. simple as that.

i have kids, little ones though. and almost all parents are 100% devoted and extremely helpful folks.

[cl00bie]

If a hatred of losing drives you, then use it. But most importantly you have to be there after they've cooled down to ask them what they think they could've done better and what they think they need to work on more at practice, hold them accountable while offering some positive reinforcement.

"Losing it", especially during a match, makes it that much harder to analyze what your opponent is doing (or what you're doing or not doing) that is causing you to lose the match.

I used to have that problem in golf (another individual competetive sport). When I got ticked off, I played bad. When I held it together, I played good (even after a bad hole). I have kind of transferred this attitude to fencing.

If I have a bad "hole" (get touched), and the match isn't over, I can still come back and win if my head is screwed on straight. If I melt down, I will definitely not win, and might not even be able to analyze what went wrong.

[dekko]

Or better yet, you can follow them around the room after losing the final bout at an important event yelling and cursing at them telling them how you wasted your time coaching them and telling them what a loser they are and............................

Oh wait, that's a different coach in our division, sorry I forgot.

Best thing to do is console and help them do better next time.

[RebelFencer]

Or better yet, you can follow them around the room after losing the final bout at an important event yelling and cursing at them telling them how you wasted your time coaching them and telling them what a loser they are and............................

Oh wait, that's a different coach in our division, sorry I forgot.

Best thing to do is console and help them do better next time.

Sounds like a very...erm..."Knightly" thing for that coach to do...

[Peach]

Actually, some of the nicest fencers I know (off the strip) turn into Attila the Hun for about 15 minutes after a loss, and should be left strictly alone to cool down before being spoken to by anyone for any reason.

It's about thirty seconds in my case, but boy is that an intense thirty seconds. My teammates all know, if they're in the vicinity, to sort of stare in the other direction or saunter off whistling; even though I salute, shake hands, sign, thank the referee, and even may say something admiring about my opponent's fencing, it's all just good training--if anyone, lulled by my apparent amiability, tries to have an actual conversation with me at that point, my reaction is to stammer "Not now! Not now!" and flap my hands at them.

[Ordway]

I don't have kids or coach young kids (I coach college students), so I can only speak from an adult perspective, but I think that overall kids and adults are not all THAT different when it comes to emotional meltdowns. My own observation is the oh-so-profound "People are different."

That is, I think a good coach or teammate knows how a particular person deals with frustration and supports them accordingly.

For me, when I'm really upset, I have to cool down at least a little bit before I can have a useful debrief with anybody. Someone stepping in to console me or make a comment risks getting their head bitten off. Except for my coach, whom I would never in a million years speak an angry word to; and he's a calming presence anyway. So I guess it is useful to know how personalities match up, if you need to send someone to talk to an upset youngster.

As an adult, I've learned to self-monitor (I try!) and so now I will try to head off the situation by telling a well-meaning person who is trying to talk to me at the wrong time, "I need to calm down by myself for a few minutes" or something like that. For a younger fencer, it probably takes the coach/parent to observe the need for that space and make sure it happens.

The question "Are you ready to talk about it?" is a marvelously respectful question. Generally by the time my coach asks me "you want to debrief?" I'm ready for it already, but I feel that, by being asked rather than having the analysis just pushed on me, I'm being respected (and it's much more of a good learning environment, because by then I'm ready to listen).