Eigertek Announcement

[DieterS]

FIE Doha 1.3 Firmware Chip

After months of testing, Eigertek is happy to announce the "Doha 1.3" upgrade for the popular Eclipse scoring machine. This plug-in chip fixes a compatibility problem with the saber program in the Doha chip and the Eclipse's static protection circuitry. With the Doha chip, a sliding contact between saber blades could set off the lights for a touch.

Eigertek recommends the upgrade for all clubs fencing saber. The Doha 1.3 chip also incorporates all of the timing changes required by the FIE in their November 2005 meeting in Doha, Qatar.

The Doha 1.3 chip is now included in all new Eclipses. As before, all existing Eclipse owners are entitled to a free upgrade through American Fencers Supply.

Best wishes and happy fencing!

Dieter
Eigertek

[KD5MDK]

Glad to hear this has finally been worked out!

[mutantmoose]

I've installed the chip here in Davis, and yes, it does work great!

[DieterS]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

Glad to hear this has finally been worked out!

Yes, we *really* wanted to make sure that this strange problem in saber was completely resolved! That's why we took the extra time to have a number of saber clubs across the nation pound on it a while before we released the upgrade.

Dieter
Eigertek

[Katman]

Originally Posted by DieterS

FIE Doha 1.3 Firmware Chip
Eigertek recommends the upgrade for all clubs fencing saber. The Doha 1.3 chip also incorporates all of the timing changes required by the FIE in their November 2005 meeting in Doha, Qatar.

Did they change something else, or did they just decide to make the "new" timings official?

[Vince]

Excellent, thanks for all of your hard work!

[DieterS]

Originally Posted by Katman

Did they change something else, or did they just decide to make the "new" timings official?

No, the FIE made most of their changes in November 2005, but several "clarifications" were announced in the following months. These included changing the foil off-target debounce timing to match the on-target timing, and changing the foil debounce timing from 15 ms to 13-15 ms.

In the Doha 1.3 chip, Eigertek set the foil debounce timing to 13 ms to reduce the incidence of non-registering hits, but the primary reason for the upgrade was to eliminate a problem with saber (sliding blades could set off a touch).

Other changes that have been advocated in the past few years by the FIE leadership seem to have been postponed for now, including eliminating off target for foil and reducing the lockout time for epee.

Hope this helps,

Dieter
Eigertek

[DieterS]

Originally Posted by Vince

Excellent, thanks for all of your hard work!

You're very welcome! And thanks for your patience.

[Chafunkta]

I thought the Doha chip added a feature that added up the times of successive hits in a small window of time with a foil tip.

Say, for instance, you hit someone in the chest, and instead of depressing the tip for 15ms, it bounced on the chest protector and depressed the tip for 5ms, 7ms, and 3ms within 20ms. That totals up to 15ms, and that would set off a light.

That was my understanding of what the Doha upgrade did, to prevent those straight attack no-light hits.

Am I completely wrong on this? Was the only change to bring the depress time to 13ms (and the off target/on target equal time thing).

[DieterS]

Originally Posted by Chafunkta

I thought the Doha chip added a feature that added up the times of successive hits in a small window of time with a foil tip.

The original Doha chip does indeed include "fencer-friendly" timings for foil that are designed to filter out "noise" that would otherwise prevent valid or non-valid touches from registering. It is my understanding that Favero and possibly other scoring manufacturers have also added filters to reduce the problem. Note that including ANY such filter does not strictly comply with FIE regulations. Eigertek's rationalization was that complies with the spirit of the regulations and makes foil fencing less frustrating under the new timings.

Say, for instance, you hit someone in the chest, and instead of depressing the tip for 15ms, it bounced on the chest protector and depressed the tip for 5ms, 7ms, and 3ms within 20ms. That totals up to 15ms, and that would set off a light. That was my understanding of what the Doha upgrade did, to prevent those straight attack no-light hits.

This is not how Eigertek implemented the foil debounce filter in the Doha chip. We went on the assumption that valid or non-valid touches in foil are "dirty signals" literally crackling with what are now popularly known as microbreaks (actually microcontacts). The method used by Eigertek is to filter out all activity (microcontacts) of a certain very small duration--the exact length of which was determined by testing--and still prevent most flicks.

Am I completely wrong on this? Was the only change to bring the depress time to 13ms (and the off target/on target equal time thing).

You're sorta right. The Doha 1.3 chip STRICTLY follows FIE regulations AND fixes a saber problem involving the original Doha chip (that couldn't be fixed with programming). However, the original Doha chip uses "fencer friendly" foil timings that are not strictly compliant with FIE requirements but implement the intent of the FIE.

So . . . if your club fences only foil and epee, I'd suggest sticking with the original Doha chip (yellow label). If your club fences saber, then go with the Doha 1.3 chip (green label).

Either way, the chips are free.

Dieter
Eigertek

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by DieterS

The original Doha chip does indeed include "fencer-friendly" timings for foil that are designed to filter out "noise" that would otherwise prevent valid or non-valid touches from registering. It is my understanding that Favero and possibly other scoring manufacturers have also added filters to reduce the problem. Note that including ANY such filter does not strictly comply with FIE regulations. Eigertek's rationalization was that complies with the spirit of the regulations and makes foil fencing less frustrating under the new timings.



This is not how Eigertek implemented the foil debounce filter in the Doha chip. We went on the assumption that valid or non-valid touches in foil are "dirty signals" literally crackling with what are now popularly known as microbreaks (actually microcontacts). The method used by Eigertek is to filter out all activity (microcontacts) of a certain very small duration--the exact length of which was determined by testing--and still prevent most flicks.



You're sorta right. The Doha 1.3 chip STRICTLY follows FIE regulations AND fixes a saber problem involving the original Doha chip (that couldn't be fixed with programming). However, the original Doha chip uses "fencer friendly" foil timings that are not strictly compliant with FIE requirements but implement the intent of the FIE.

So . . . if your club fences only foil and epee, I'd suggest sticking with the original Doha chip (yellow label). If your club fences saber, then go with the Doha 1.3 chip (green label).

Either way, the chips are free.

Dieter
Eigertek

First thing, I am not a Foil fencer.

But I am concerned about the effects in high level competitive fencing of training with a scoring machine that does acknowledge touches that will not be registered in, for example, World Championships.

I certainly agree that reducing the frustration of recreational fencers is worthwhile.

But how about the fencers who suddenly find that the actions they train with will not produce valid touches?

[DieterS]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

First thing, I am not a Foil fencer.

But I am concerned about the effects in high level competitive fencing of training with a scoring machine that does acknowledge touches that will not be registered in, for example, World Championships.

I certainly agree that reducing the frustration of recreational fencers is worthwhile.

But how about the fencers who suddenly find that the actions they train with will not produce valid touches?

You're right, but there's no definitive answer here. It all depends on your point of view. Here are some arguments either way--choose the one you like.

Argument 1: The *intent* of the FIE was to eliminate the flick, not to make 10% of valid touches not register. The fault is in the regulations as stated and the FIE needs to address these deficiencies and update the requirements once again. In the meantime, scoring machine engineers and programmers should just "make it work."

Argument 2: The *strict* interpretation of FIE regulations makes no allowance for filtering. High-level (World Cup) foil fencers must take into account the fact that 10% of their valid hits will not register and adjust their techniques accordingly. Thus, high-level foil fencers should be using the strict FIE program as in the Doha 1.3 chip, but everyone else can use the more friendly program in the original Doha chip.

Argument 3: The FIE doesn't test FIE-approved scoring machines to determine whether they use filtering. So, high-level foil fencers won't necessarily be using a strict machine.

Argument 4: The judging in foil is subjective, which results in questionable calls to a far more significant level than the occasional non-registering touch. It really doesn't matter.

Argument 5: All scoring machines should be using exactly the same program. Until then, all differences are unfair. The program that is officially sanctioned by the FIE must be manufactured by <fill in the name of the European company that you hate the most> and used by all other companies.

Argument 6: The FIE regulations for scoring machines were abviously not written by electronic engineers and are thus subject to considerable interpretation. Any decisions made by non-engineers who are unfamiliar with modern digital electronics will be arbitrary and stupid. The whole thing is a crap shoot.

Argument 7: The vast majority of fencers simply want to have fun and are not competing in World Cup events or (for now) the Olympics. If foil fencing ceases to be fun and competitive results are determined to a significant extent by luck, foil fencers will switch to epee, saber, or quit fencing altogether. If that happens, there won't be any high-level foil left to be concerned with. Foil will pass into history.

Argument 8: Under the strictest timings, many foil fencers hit harder to try to increase contact time. This is painful and dangerous. See argument 7.

You get the idea. At least with Eigertek you now have a choice, and it's free!

Dieter
Eigertek

[reawl]

Is there a setting I'm missing on the Doha 1.3 chip that gives the latest timing, but that only allows the buzzer to buzz once (instead of continuously), when a fencer is unpluged in foil? Sabre behaves the way I want it to.

Also, I expected my power up sequence to be more like the original Doha chip, with two pulses, instead of one beep. Maybe my chips weren't burned right?

No other issues than those. Been using it for about two weeks.

[DieterS]

Originally Posted by reawl

Is there a setting I'm missing on the Doha 1.3 chip that gives the latest timing, but that only allows the buzzer to buzz once (instead of continuously), when a fencer is unpluged in foil? Sabre behaves the way I want it to.

Also, I expected my power up sequence to be more like the original Doha chip, with two pulses, instead of one beep. Maybe my chips weren't burned right?

No other issues than those. Been using it for about two weeks.

The POST (Power On Self Test) that the Eclipse completes when you turn it on ends with a different beep pattern for each version of the firmware. The Doha 1.3 chip has one beep. You can see the complete list of firmware revisions on the Eigertek website (click Support).

The buzzer should turn off automatically for all weapons. If it doesn't, something is wrong and you can send it back for free repair.

Best wishes,

Dieter
Eigertek

[finnfence]

Originally Posted by DieterS

If foil fencing ceases to be fun and competitive results are determined to a significant extent by luck, foil fencers will switch to epee, saber, or quit fencing altogether. If that happens, there won't be any high-level foil left to be concerned with. Foil will pass into history.

Yes, and I am beginning to suspect that this is precisely the point of these rule changes. Make it hard to score, with lots of valid touches that don't register and induce maximum frustration; expand the frontal target area so it looks more like epee anyway; get rid of flicking, which made the the back and sides easily available targets, so that this is reduced to a slower, more epee-like game of remising....hmmm...do I see a systematic effort to conflate foil and epee so that foil can be got rid of, or is it only my paranoid imagination?

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by finnfence

or is it only my paranoid imagination?

*ding* *ding* *ding* We have a winner!

There is no secret plot to get rid of foil (even if it WOULD solve our issue with number of Olympic medals... :) ).

-B

[finnfence]

[quote=oiuyt;622755
There is no secret plot to get rid of foil
-B[/QUOTE]

Dang. That means I actually have to do some work to organize opposition to rules I don't like, then.

[brtech]

I like argument #6.

[DieterS]

Originally Posted by brtech

I like argument #6.

My preference is argument #1.

Dieter
Eigertek