I've seen a coach teaching students not to lean forward (that is, body stay up right as in a classic good lunge) while attempting a toe touch. Is this right? or rather, is this more desirable or is leaning forward more desirable? give your opinions, please.
Don't be a faggotron, just use what works. If you're good enough to be caring, then you're really good enough to hit the foot any way possible.
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. And from this side only! The flight of a half-man, half-bird. Dinosaurs nuzzling their young in pastures where strip malls should be. Cookies on dowels. All those moment, lost in time. Gone, like eggs off a hooker's stomach. Time to die" -Phil Ken Sebben
The technique is just the distance, set up and most importantly, the awareness of the foot. With those, you can do pretty much anything and hit the foot however you like. In the air, while squatting, riposte from prime, lunge, fleche, whatever. Without it... forget it.
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. And from this side only! The flight of a half-man, half-bird. Dinosaurs nuzzling their young in pastures where strip malls should be. Cookies on dowels. All those moment, lost in time. Gone, like eggs off a hooker's stomach. Time to die" -Phil Ken Sebben
no you are totally off. look bysword, here is the only way you can hit a foot touch. observe my picture. you dont need any timing for this one or magic tempo change whatever. just go for it man! be a warrior.
Maybe he's thinking about bending over with the back and looking down vs. squatting and keeping torso upright. With D+F+P-quality training, squats and recovery should be really fast. And looking down is always bad.
Just walk around a venue at the next Div 1 and you'll see toe touches executed from standing upright and leaning positions. Posted french epee fencers can flick to the toe easily from upright and there are also a decent number of pistol grip users that will go to the toe while standing. I actually have to go with DFP and say that the important thing is having the right distance and timing. Also one shouldn't necessarily have to look at the target for most opponents.
I now dangle to the left....my tassle. Get your minds out of the gutter.
"Martin was not an optimist; he was a prisoner of hope." Optimism is about assuming there's evidence that justifies your outlook while hope is about creating the evidence and procuring your own happiness or vision of the world. - Professor West
I agree with BigDawg and DFP... it depends a lot on the situation. What distance are you using to go for the toe, what actions are you using as a preparation, what is the opponent doing, etc... all of these things matter.
In addition to setting up the right distance and timing, you also need to pick the right action. Try it both ways and see what works for what situation.
As far as looking... in the average epee fencer's on guard, the front foot will be a bit inside of their bell guard. Try fienting to the inside of their hand and just dropping down. Check to see where they are beforehand, obviosuly, but I've found that to generally work. If it's different, just look at the foot in relation to the bell guard and use it (their bell guard) as a guide for where to aim.
"If I were ever to challenge you to a duel, your best bet would be battle axes in a very dark basement." Misquoted from The Prisoner
"Technical excellence is the antecedant of tactical creativity." - Nat Goodhartz
But those things which belong neither to God nor to Caeser, feeleth free to writeth them off, for yea, they are deductable.
As a fencer who posts with a french grip, it can be incredibly easy to nail an opponent who attempts a toe touch without proper distance and/or timing. Regardless of the type of action used, without distance and timing, the odds will be against you for a one light action.
I will personally lean when going for it. My goal is to get in and out as fast as possible, and I feel that leaning as I'm going helps me get the downward swipe quicker. Just be careful not to telegraph.
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To expand on the subject and give the OP and anyone else who is interested some help...
We've all been saying "it depends," which is an answer that is given many times to these sorts of questions, and we've delved a bit into what it depends on, but when, exactly, is it better to lean, and when is it better to stay upright? In what sorts of situations do different types of toe touches work?
"If I were ever to challenge you to a duel, your best bet would be battle axes in a very dark basement." Misquoted from The Prisoner
"Technical excellence is the antecedant of tactical creativity." - Nat Goodhartz
But those things which belong neither to God nor to Caeser, feeleth free to writeth them off, for yea, they are deductable.
It's better to lean from a reasonable distance, when in closer quarters you'll probably want to squat so that you don't close too much distance and put your point past them.
RebelFencer's Awesome Quote of the Week:
"Encouraging the average age of first intercourse to go below 16?"
-Army Fencer
I also think that the squat is better in close quarters because it keeps you on balance better, allowing you to retain mobility, which is doubly important when you're in close.
I've been thinking about this, and I'm wondering if maybe the answer is keep upright if you are close enough to do so because it will allow you to retain more mobility and lean only if you know you can recover quickly enough and to a safe enough distance that you won't be hit by a counter attack, riposte, remise, or whatever.
My .02, anyway.
"If I were ever to challenge you to a duel, your best bet would be battle axes in a very dark basement." Misquoted from The Prisoner
"Technical excellence is the antecedant of tactical creativity." - Nat Goodhartz
But those things which belong neither to God nor to Caeser, feeleth free to writeth them off, for yea, they are deductable.
I also think that the squat is better in close quarters because it keeps you on balance better, allowing you to retain mobility, which is doubly important when you're in close.
I've been thinking about this, and I'm wondering if maybe the answer is keep upright if you are close enough to do so because it will allow you to retain more mobility and lean only if you know you can recover quickly enough and to a safe enough distance that you won't be hit by a counter attack, riposte, remise, or whatever.
My .02, anyway.
I don't know, I feel that you'd lose a little power that way. Personally I don't feel off balance when leaning with it, it feels more like a downward strike n swipe...so in a way it helps because I can feel a rhythm in it (I could be alone in that). I don't know, hopefully that makes sense to someone.
RebelFencer's Awesome Quote of the Week:
"Encouraging the average age of first intercourse to go below 16?"
-Army Fencer
I don't know, I feel that you'd lose a little power that way. Personally I don't feel off balance when leaning with it, it feels more like a downward strike n swipe...so in a way it helps because I can feel a rhythm in it (I could be alone in that). I don't know, hopefully that makes sense to someone.
That makes perfect sense.
As others said, it is mostly about distance and timing.
Rick
"Some people are born great fencers, some people achieve fencing greatness, and some people have it thrust upon them."
I lean forward for toe touches. Actually, sometimes I lean so far forward that it looks like my upper body is almost parallel with the strip. This way, if someone goes for a straight lunge or a stop thrust, my body is so far down, they usually lunge over me. Plus, I've gotten quite good at jumping back or retreating while down low.
Last edited by UnorthodoxEpeeist; 01-20-2007 at 10:22 PM.
No one cares how long your epee is, and if it breaks you just get a new one.
I lean forward for toe touches. Actually, I lean so far forward that it looks like my upper body is almost parallel with the strip.
I love it when an opponent does this to me. It gives me an opportunity to pull my foot, extend my arm, and land a counter-attack on the upper arm or shoulder.
I have been taught that the correct form is to not lean. On paper, it makes sense as attacking with the torso erect allows one to keep their balance, keep as much target as possible out of distance, and be prepared to respond to the kinds of counter-attacks I described above.
Of course, if you go for the toe and it's just out of reach and a little leaning would close the distance, then it's probably not a bad idea.
Experiment with it. Watch others and see what works for them and what doesn't work for them.
One test is worth a thousand opinions. I ain't as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever was. - Toby Keith Living life without taking the occasional risk is like lemon-pepper chicken without the lemon-peper. It's just chicken.
I don't think a 'lean' should be too leany....in other words just angle slightly from the waist like so: / keeping distance, look at the target, point your epee at the foot - dart forward rapidly - keepin the arm extended at a graceful angle and pop the toe - I did it once correctly in a practice warmup and it worked fine even though I was about 2 feet shorter than my opponent.
Originally Posted by RITFencing 
