Attitude Problems

[Gary]

Coaches and Instructors,

How do you handle attitude problems with students? I.e., talking back during instruction, disregarding instructions.

Public embarrassment? Ask them to leave?
What has worked best for you?

[Mergs]

Ask them to leave. Can't say that I've ever had much of a problem with it, though. To much drill sergeant influence at an early age, I guess.

[Christopher J Umbs]

Well, since I'm at a classical salle, we're just a tad formal and have thrown people out of the program for various extremes of social retardation. Before we get to that point, however, there is generally a lot of pressure from the rest of the students to shape up.

Chris

[Purple Fencer]

Originally posted by Mergs:
Ask them to leave. Can't say that I've ever had much of a problem with it, though. To much drill sergeant influence at an early age, I guess.

Drop and give me 20, Maggot!

Do you wear the Smokey-the-Bear hat too?

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Sam Signorelli -- Boldly going forward...'cause I can't find reverse!

[epeetaph]

I think I know what you mean, mergs. My father was a drill sergeat when I was a toddler and later, I was the only five year old I knew that could march in perfect formation while singing cadences. *nervous twitches*

[attila]

No such thing during my lesson. My way or the highway( minus your lesson fee). I have had notable problems with overly-studious home schooled kids. Something about social retardation. I just simply remind them that THE reason they are taking a lesson from me is that I am better at this than them and if they think otherwise I challenge them to a 15 point epee bout and if they win I refund their money. No takers so far.

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"Kill the men, save the women, and by the gods, do not spill the wine"

[chilli]

Yeah! Tell them to leave. I am not an instructor but you are doing a favour for your other students when you are firm and get on with the fencing.

I was so frustrated when my coach was lenient with those angst-ridden, belligerent trouble-makers. Boot 'em out! There's others out there who will know what a privilege it is to be there.
Can you tell that I was a millitary brat?

[This message has been edited by chilli (edited 04-20-2001).]

[Stryder]

Gary-

One word: "Lunge."

A tired smart-*** is much more cooperative.

..."So you think you know a better way? You've invented a way to flick from prime? That's great but let's work on your lunge for a while first, OK?"...

Then spend 15 minutes saying "Nope. Try again."

It isn't just about punishing them. ANY fencer can use 15 minuutes of lunging (except maybe the Veteran's division fencers. They might want to keep it to 10 minutes.) There are also (as was mentioned) the other fencers in the room to consider. Allowing one bad attitude in your club will foster others. Be firm in whatever your method. My personality is such that I prefer to redirect the energy of the precocious youths that I run into. Rather than argue with them, I work the energy out of them until they are at a more managable level.

My favorite drill for these types is to check their recovery time. Make them lunge and recover before you can whack them across the mask. Let them succeed every time their recovery is prompt. Recovering is harder work than lunging and just as valuable so again, it is not useless make-work. It is invaluable conditioning.

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[Oor Wullie]

Dearie me,

This all sounds a little harsh. Some kids need to be worked with, they need to be guided through their attitude problems. Kicking someone out only means they are going to be bounced around until there is nowhere else for them to go. Fair enough if someone is just an smart-arse gasbag, but some people need to be cut some slack and helped out.

Equally, once a fencer gets to a certain level, I think some discussion between the fencer and the coach is invaluable in finding what works and what doesn't. Different moves suit different fencers, and sometimes listening to a fencer is the sign of a mature, flexible, and ultimately better coach.

Of course, this is all just my opinion as someone who has never coached. No doubt if I start doing it I will completely change my mind and start banning people for farting during my lessons.

[arcon]

[ 10-19-2001: Message edited by: arcon ]

[d8m2k]

Never failed me yet,
Tell the offender that you have no time to waste on someone who doesn't want to work, and end the lesson.
Don't be mean, just matter of fact.

Most people realize that they want to stay, understand that you call the shots, and at the same time, it is their choice whether they stay or not.

[This message has been edited by d8m2k (edited 04-20-2001).]

[Foil Girl]

I help out coaching with the beggining fencers, and when the club is really busy sometimes with the little more advanced ones. Because I'm not the head coach or anything like that, I can't kick them out. I also end up being about the same age as some of the bad ones, so I don't havbe that advantage either. What can I do? Sometimes I'm more mentally tired after two of those group lessons than after MY lesson.

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-Foil Girl
"Nadie nace sabiendo"

[scarlet_woman156k]

I have actually had a situation when I taught some children ages 7 to 11. There was a 7-year-old who was a definite problem child, but never caused any problems in my class more than just a little teasing here and there which was quickly ended.

But one day he actually turned on me. I won't go into the details, but it was rather shocking. I looked at him straight in the eye and calmly said, "I thought you and I had a better relationship than that, I'm really offended. If you are going to continue to do that, I don't want you coming back to my class."

He was so shocked that I didn't yell (since that was the typical response of any other adult that interacted with him), that he was quiet for the rest of the class and then never showed up again.

If I would have known better, I would have talked to him later and reassured him to come back to class. He felt so guilty (whereas with other adults he never did), that he couldn't show his face at my class again. And I felt bad about that.

But, I've learned that you should treat children like adults, because most of the time they are so use to being "treated" like children that them numb out "typical" adult responses. However, at the same time, I should have also talked to him later because my response to his actions really left a mark on him....because, after all, he still was a child. Unfortunately at the time, I wasn't aware of that thin line...and his need of reassurance and acceptance from me.

scarlet.

[This message has been edited by scarlet_woman156k (edited 05-05-2001).]

[Mr_Jones]

I find a little humor, sparsely used throughout the lesson is a good preventative measure. But then, I'm an easy going kind of person, and save the 'toss him out!' for the seriously sadistic types.

[ledgerto]

We have one little beast in our group lessons that always talks back to the coach and says she doesn't want to do things or wants to do something else. She alwys says she is the best fencer and nobody else knows what they are doing. On the piste she is wild; slashing about etc. Nobody wants to fence with her.

I wish the coach would get stern with her. He is very patient with everyone which is what I liked about him to begin with,but in this case it is not working.

What you have said about taking into consideration, the other fencers, is true.
I think it is the coach's responsiblity to nip poor and unsportsman-like attitudes in the bud.

[saberbaby03]

I have to teach the beginning and intermediate classes, and our punishment for the misbehaving kids is this; make them go sit on a chair with straight backs, and hands on their knees until you say they can get up. If they complain, more minutes are added to theit time. If they absolutely refuse to comply, we ask their parents to not bring them back, fortunately that has never happened. The worst thing that can happen to a litle kid is to have to sit and watch all their classmates have fun without them.

*annika*

[Peach]

We make sassy ones do laps, or pushups, or "pitter-patter" (in on-guard position, pick up and put down your feet rapidly for 30 seconds at a time). Or we take them off individually and have long talks with them, which is my method of choice since the kids begin to enjoy the extra work of the first method very rapidly. When the whole group gets lackadaisical or starts wasting time, we just lose our sense of humor and become extremely boring, making them do the task over and over until they get it right (don't want to do that too often because very quickly all the kids are yelling at the laggards to shape up).

But we only have elementary school students in our program.

[FencerInUS]

We do the "pitter patter" or as we call it "advance in place" as part of our warm up so its not really a punnishment for us, although everyone groans when coach says advance in place. We have levels 1 2 and 3 also. 3 is the deapest advance in place. although sometimes he goes to 4.

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F.I.US.
Parry, THEN riposte
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[Fleche]

My coach, being the sadistically evil guy that he is, left me to 'guide' a whole lot of uni people in non-electric bouting with right of way for the first time. I have fenced for 2 year, and I am only in 11th grade. That makes them two years older than me, and all through this lesson they kept treating what I was saying as if I was a complete beginner and they knew more than me!!! It was very annoying, and I kept losing confidence because of the way they treated me. Now I really don't want to take a lesson again, my faith in what I know is undermined by the students. Any suggestions?

Fleche

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Say NO to NO2 . . .

[Stryder]

Fleche-
If they were beginners and you've been fencing for 2 years, what you were telling them was probably right. They were challenging you because that is how a lot of people learn. They didn't understand exactly what you were telling them so they asked you to redefine it for them.
Stick to your guns. They won't respect you because they are supposed to. They will only respect you because you earn their respect.

Witrh regard to "pitter-patter" or "advancing in place". I call it "hit drills" Something we did in High School for football and wrestling. One of the hardest workouts you can squeeze into 3 minutes.
One thing I haven't heard mentioned is the "hit" part. In school every few seconds our coach would yell "Hit!" and we would drop, touch our chests on the floor, and pop back up again and continue the "pitter-patter" part.
Now I yell "Hit!" and everyone lunges. Hard and fast, instant recovery, and immediately back to "pittering and pattering"

An excellent workout after everyone has reached their limit I (take them a couple of minutes past it, then) look at the clock and tell them what percentage of one bout they have completed.
Sometimes I tell them whoever is satisfied with second place can go rest.

Sick aren't I?

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