Attitude Problems

[Pa55w0rd]

hmmm, fenced *** at the weekend, only to 5, and i won 5-0, as he insisted on performing stylised wide manouvres. I just stood back and attacked as he (quite often) exposed 4 and 6. The little brat even refused to shake hands after the bout, and I had to prompt him. (shakes head.)

[D'Artagnan1673]

We've only had one bad attitude in our club since I've fenced. He was a horrible, wild fencer. He'd pout pretty bad when he lost, which was often. He got some good reproaches on this and finally quit showing up after one particular night when I creamed him bad.

Christopher's club has the idea. I like the idea of a great deal of respect in a salle'. At the same time, I like my club's layed back attitude to an extent. I think that a happy medium must be reached.

[arcon]

Hmmmmmmmm........lets not limit the bad attitudes to students. It wasnt in the club but i(along with others) witnessed a Coach toss his foil on the gym floor after losing a bout in a tournament. It landed about 15 feet away and rolled under his wifes chair.
Another prominent Coach struck a female student on the leg (with his foil)because she was repeatively performing an action wrong. She never took another lesson from him.

Such respectable non-perfect men setting good examples for others in the world of fencing.

The Arcon

[ 05-07-2002: Message edited by: arcon ]</p>

[135711]

now if i ask a really tough question that you're too tired to answer....it's too weird, hey, did anyone see the movie about the girl who (1940's) was in a car wreck. charles boyer found her with his manservant and brought her home where he raised her, then he began training her on piano lessons, and then she became a concert pianst, but he was sorta weird-o and he used to thump on the floor with his cane and say "play francesca!play' until she finally couldn't stand him anymore and almost eloped with some other guy, but then finally charles boyer married her, it was truely an amazing film - does anyone have the name of that

[135711]

you know, in all the time i've fenced, i've never thrown an weapon, or any other material, and i've never raised my voice at any of the fencers, i've always maintained my cool, maybe that's why i provoke such reactions!

still looking for a salle.

[The Crazy Wacker]

[quote]Originally posted by Stryder:
<strong>Gary-

One word: "Lunge."

A tired smart-*** is much more cooperative.

..."So you think you know a better way? You've invented a way to flick from prime? That's great but let's work on your lunge for a while first, OK?"...

Then spend 15 minutes saying "Nope. Try again."

It isn't just about punishing them. ANY fencer can use 15 minuutes of lunging (except maybe the Veteran's division fencers. They might want to keep it to 10 minutes.) There are also (as was mentioned) the other fencers in the room to consider. Allowing one bad attitude in your club will foster others. Be firm in whatever your method. My personality is such that I prefer to redirect the energy of the precocious youths that I run into. Rather than argue with them, I work the energy out of them until they are at a more managable level.

My favorite drill for these types is to check their recovery time. Make them lunge and recover before you can whack them across the mask. Let them succeed every time their recovery is prompt. Recovering is harder work than lunging and just as valuable so again, it is not useless make-work. It is invaluable conditioning.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'd have ta say, Make them do lunges. If your in a gymnasium type area make them lunge all the way around the out-of-bounds line for basketball, about 5-8 times, then make them go around once with all their lunges perfect.

[It]

It's very rare for me to have any problems. If my students don't want to learn, I don't force them. If they want to goof around, I let them. Heck (not to sound cruel) I still get paid. And they know that. It's not my time, it's their's. Also they know that there's a point in where I'll stop teaching them all together and sorta ignore them. Kinda like the silent treatment. I don't ask if they need help. I let them come up to me and ask for it. I mean why teach something to someone who simply dosen't want to learn. Don't get me wrong, I'll still keep an eye on them and I'll still keep them in my head that they are still my students until they move on. I won't ask them to leave. That's not my place to do. I also won't allow my class to seem like some sort of a silly sadism boot camp nor a reckless romper room.

The best way for me to control my students is to be like an older sibling, give them respect, be a mentor, and my main thing, make it fun. <img src="graemlins/jester.gif" border="0" alt="[Jester]" />

[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: It ]</p>

[HilandDoug]

If you have a large class, like myself (beginners class of 32, with ages ranging from 9 to 57), it's not possible to take someone aside to do lunges until they drop. I stop class, focus everyone on the problem student, point out the inappropriate behaviour, and demand it stop for the benefit of the rest of the class. I then point out that everyone has paid to be there and learn to use a weapon, and the offender surely wouldn't want to upset 31 people with swords, now would they? Of course not. And of course, I always finish with, "And if I hear that one more time, I will tell your mother you are not welcome in this gymnasium any more." And that has always worked no matter the age of the offender.

[135711]

people need to speak, ask questions and figure things out, the thing is, when many adults of varying backgrounds and upbringings come together, we have different ideas of what makes a class good. the classic reference point in education is the western concepts,as pomulgated by socrates (ergo: the socratic method) versus the asian methodolgy of teaching: silence is golden. [ipsofacto]
<img src="graemlins/fett.gif" border="0" alt="[The Fett]" />
i remember one guy about 15 years ago, threw his weapon down on the strip, the head coach nodded, we all sorta nodded, and then the student sat out for about 15 mintues, and we all sorta jumped in a delightful way 'heeeeyyy la la la la' and continued fencing!

[arcon]

Have the person (with the bad attitude )sit out of the activities. This represents a warning. IF it continues then ask them to leave (partisipation)..later ....after class....approach them privately about the matter.

[Catlady]

I'm with Arcon's suggestion on this pretty much. First tell them not to do it. If they keep it up sit out. If they're a consistent problems. Outta here!

I do mean a very consistent problem as in they are always copping an attitude/and or distracting other students. Yelling isn't necessary, although I admit I resort to it more than I should--in my family we tend to yell at you because we love you, not verbal abuse mind you, and until recently I didn't realize how much this upsets some people.
Of course you have to make sure the "offender" knows what they did to get in trouble, even if it seems obvious just do it to make sure. I'm a big fan of discussion, but that may change when I end up being the one who's consistently in charge of discipline. If the "offender" is a child there's probably a point where you want to get the parent involved. Of course, there are some parents who can't seem to understand that their little darling could possibly do anything wrong. In that case, I don't know what to do other than suggest that everyone's interests might be better served by going elsewhere. So far, I don't think my club has kicked anyone out, but we've had a couple kids do a few times-out before. I know in the case of one instructor, if you're giving her attitude during your lesson, the lesson's over. Come back next week, with a better attitude. Adults are more complicated, but I think the same holds true. Let them know they're doing something wrong, and escalate the consequences if they continue to not comply. I'd recommend waiting until the "offender" has had some cool off time before you discuss anything though. There've been few times when I've pitched a fit, unbelievable I know . What my coach did was beneficial. He confronted me about my behavior, but waited until I was calm enough to listen. I'm the type of person who instinctively wants to have it out right now, but that's not the best option.

Okay, I'm done now.

[135711]

there must be something wrong, i think it's especially revealing with the statement that we all yell or should yell at each other based on a love conception. love has nothing to do with any of this, i don't love anyone or pretend to, my feelings about fencing is i love fencing, and i try to respect my instructors, and my fellow students, we don't show our respect when we yell at one another, it's completely disrepectful. also we don't use vulgarities to demonstrate our respect for one another, not even after we know each other for a long long time. i think the emotion of love is reserved for people who are special to us in some way, and that only develops over time, but 'brotherly love' or whatever that is , i don't know if i buy that.

[ 05-10-2002: Message edited by: 135711 ]</p>

[arcon]

135711, i dont want to come off as your cheering section but i totally agree with your last post.

Its so much easier to be civil, considerate but firm. I dont believe in yelling, striking the student with the foil, or making them do any physical activity for punishment. What is not said
is sometimes more effective than what is said. Cold,cocky,egotistical attitudes by coaches does nothing but intimadate a student, causing them to be nervous and perform badly. There IS a way to be firm and in control without coming off mean or too forceful.

arcon

[ 05-10-2002: Message edited by: arcon ]</p>

[135711]

then we agree, have a nice weekend while i roast at work trying to avoid getting canned by a bunch of harpies and bald headed women, avoid getting killed by gangstas on the way home, and at the same time arrange for my next endeavor. but then, there are things to be grateful for: i'm still breathing, although sometimes i wonder if this is really worth it when the people around me seem to show absolutely no gratitude whatsoever for even having a life, being able to fence, or walk for that matter. well, in the afterlife, which in my worldview [ignatius p. reily] may be quite short, we either get pan-fried, recycled back into something....interesting, or become the "next generation".

[ 05-10-2002: Message edited by: 135711 ]</p>

[Spanky]

pssst ....135711! be grateful you live in the usa no tin argentian or israel or afghanistan or south africa or nepal or ...

[KC]

Just one word of advice to those who would like to take someone aside privately and let them know they were wrong...

If the offending person is younger than 18 ALWAYS have an assistant coach or another adult with you... This protect both you and the child...

You never know, one day you scold a child and the next they are making false claims against you and without a witness who do you think people will believe??? It would destroy your club...

[Catlady]

[quote]Originally posted by 135711:
<strong>there must be something wrong, i think it's especially revealing with the statement that we all yell or should yell at each other based on a love conception. love has nothing to do with any of this, i don't love anyone or pretend to, my feelings about fencing is i love fencing, and i try to respect my instructors, and my fellow students, we don't show our respect when we yell at one another, it's completely disrepectful. also we don't use vulgarities to demonstrate our respect for one another, not even after we know each other for a long long time. i think the emotion of love is reserved for people who are special to us in some way, and that only develops over time, but 'brotherly love' or whatever that is , i don't know if i buy that.

[ 05-10-2002: Message edited by: 135711 ]</strong><hr></blockquote>


I DO NOT ADVOCATE EITHER VULGARITY, OR CONSTANT HARRANGING OF ANYONE!!! (Pardon my on-line yelling, but if 357Etc. can't find her shift key, then I should be able to do all caps once in a while). I am saying that I come from a family where we have very loud, shall we say, discussions. I'm not insulting as frustration level and vocal volume tend to be related. I respect people very much, and respect is key. However, if you prove that you will not respect me, I'm going to be less likely to respect you. It's a two way thing. Furthermore, I have never, and will never advocate physical violence on anyone. That's wrong, and a sign that you have lost control, of yourself, of the situation, of everything. NOT GOOD AT ALL. If you want to hit someone, either hit something inanimate and unbreakable, or give yourself a timeout.

I may not be the psychological model of effective personal interaction, but I have a feeling that none of us are. (If so, I supose it must be nice to be perfect and look down on all us mere mortals)Sorry, if I've gone into rant mode yet again, but you disparage my family and friends, indirectly, or otherwise, and I will take it very personally.

Also, what you type, how you spell etc. is no reflection of your intelligence, or innate goodness, or worth as a person, but it's very hard to read a message composed in either all lower-case, or all caps. So, I at least would appreciate it if we would all avoid doing either, if possible.

357 Etc. It sounds like you're in a really bad place right now emotionally. I relate, I've been there. For the record, I'm not trying to nullify any statement you've made by criticizing what I perceive your current emotional situation to be, but I was struck by your comments on not loving anyone/anything. Like I said, last year I felt the same, my job was making me nuts, then suddenly I didn't have a job, and I was feeling abused, and mad at the world, it was not pleasant and neither was I. If you aren't considering it all ready, you need to make some changes in your life and get back to living the way you want to however you can. I hope things improve for you.
And I meant to say, I agree with KC. With kids, or people of the opposite sex of any age, goes double BTW for children of the opposite sex, definitely be sure you've got an "observer" at least in the room, so that you have a witness that you didn't do/say anything unseemly.

I'm still working on how you would do this and yet still allow the child to take responsibility and correct themselves before the parents get involved. As instructor, which I've stated I'm not right now, I would want to have a relationship where the child knew I respected them enough to believe them capable of handling certain things, such as correcting their behavior, on their own. I'm not sure if I've gotten across what I meant to say in that last sentence, but I hope you understand what I'm getting at.

[ 05-15-2002: Message edited by: Catlady ]</p>

[Mo]

<<I'm still working on how you would do this and yet still allow the child to take responsibility and correct themselves before the parents get involved. As instructor, which I've stated I'm not right now, I would want to have a relationship where the child knew I respected them enough to believe them capable of handling certain things, such as correcting their behavior, on their own. I'm not sure if I've gotten across what I meant to say in that last sentence, but I hope you understand what I'm getting at. Catlady>>>

Dear Cat,
People know when they are screwing around and they know when they are behaving badly. What you do is talk to them.
You tell them you noticed something they are doing that is bothering you. Say something like, "I noticed when you are fencing you seem to get anxious when you get behind point wise. Then it seems you get a little wild and unintentionally hurt people. What can we do to make this better?? Do you notice yourself doing it?? I know you would not do this on purpose (even though they could be) so what kind of ideas can you come up with to keep this from happening?"
You presented the problem in a caring yet non sarcastic or blaming way.
The secret is to give a kid or adult a way to save face while firmly telling them that the behavior has to stop.
Modeling behavior is a very good way to deal with issues too. When kids see the coach treat people with fairness and understanding, they do it too. Good sportsmanship should be expected from the very beginning and has to be required of everyone. One coach thought it was funny when a fencer would get beat and they proceed to take revenge on the kid who beat him because he was "humiliated." That kind of attitude seriously bothered me.
Consistency is a key too. If the "star" of the team can do whatever they want it is not exactly fair for the other kids to have to follow the rules.
The main thing is the people in power have to have their heads together but that does not seem like it happens with a lot of coaches.
Coaching and parenting are in many ways, a lot the same. Having been both, (not fencing coach though) sometimes it is very difficult for me to remain quiet.
If the parents are around and not telling their kids to follow the rules and behave, then I see nothing wrong with the coaches doing it. But NOT in a damaging way.

[135711]

okay, we were talking about attitude problems. as an adult, fencing in a local school, albeit small, i entered a competition that took me to another school. the competition went okay, i fenced alright. i went back to my class and assumed that people, especially my teacher would have a lively interest in the outcome of the competition. Instead, he called me a traitor in the middle of the class. It was so ridiculose. Then the other students picked up on his statements and began mistreating me in the salle. I began to realize that things were not so good there. I received an e-mail message from another school "why was I fencing with _____? was I insane? did I value myself? You should leave his salle immediately, you are being abused" etc etc. I listened and decided 'he has a point - i'm getting out of here' So I went to the other salle, where I had enjoyed a little competition, and said "hey gang! can I join your club" they said okay, as long as you don't bring ____. So for one year everything went 'okay' and then, suddenly, my new teacher in my new club, went berserk about my ever having fenced with ____. I found this backbiting between the two clubs tiresome.

[ 05-20-2002: Message edited by: 135711 ]</p>

[shyHeidi]

Your coaches sound really immature. I'm sorry. I have a couple teachers who apparently don't get along too well, but they don't take it out on me or anything. (actually, I've only fenced with 1 of them so far, but he knows I'm going to start learning from the other guy, and has no objections [though he definitely makes his opinion known...])
Good luck on finding a new salle and a new coach...