A. Regional Veteran Circuits - Q. How to grow Veteran Fencing?

[JEC]

In prior years, we have had messages within threads on this subject, but not a formal thread. There is a USFA committee on Veteran Fencing and one of their mandates is to foster and grow Veteran fencing.

The questions for the thread are:
How to grow Veteran Fencing?
Are Regional Veteran Circuits a good answer for the first question?

My answer to the first question, obviously, is to foster Regional or Sectional Veteran Circuits with 3-5 annual tournaments, and possibly use these rankings as one of the qualifiers for Veteran events at Summer Nationals.

I do not think that the Veteran NACs would suffer in attendance if strong regional circuits develop across the US. Veteran Circuits with 3-5 annual tournaments that count for Sectional or Regional rankings might be a good springboard for some fencers as well as an opportunity to improve rating separation among veterans (i.e.: A, B, C, etc.). Initial seeding at Veteran NACs would improve for pools because of the spreading. [In Richmond, an U-rated fencer was seeded in a pool despite being former NCAA champion. When queried, he said no veteran competitions in his area].

The other aspect is encouraging some good fencers that they are able to still make it nationally. I fence locally, regionally and at nationals, but despite having a very good national ranking in Men's Epee (#20/100), I am NOT one of the best 10 Veteran Men's Epee fencers in my section and my section represents about 10% of the USFA membership. I know of at least 10 veteran SW fencers who I consider definitely at a level above me and are not ranked. They do not compete often, or at all, at Veteran NACs (or every few years). There are another group of 10 or so fencers who compete regionally and are at my level, some slightly better or slightly worse, but are also not ranked. However, there is a large group of registered USFA competitive veteran fencers in the SW section (~150 male veterans) who do not compete in Veteran NACs or regional Opens. These veteran fencers might only compete locally, only train at their clubs, or they are only coaching. One problem is that we do not know even the number of us (Veteran Fencers), as some of them register as Senior (not Veteran), as part of a family being a competitive member, or have other active membership category (i.e.: I am a supportive member lvl 5).

Thus, how can we encourage these veteran fencers to attend national and regional events? In my view, the answer is to provide them with the competitive environment regionally in the form of a Veteran Circuit. If some of them experience regional success, they might be more likely to try competing nationally. Similarly, for those fencers who started late, a regional circuit provides them with a training familiar ground rather than attending a Veteran NAC possibly getting a bad taste by being harder than expected.

Other issues include keeping the 25-40 age group interested in fencing, so that they are still fencing when turning 40 and become veteran fencers. Developing mechanisms for keeping the college kids from dropping fencing after graduation should also be part of the strategic plan for Veteran Fencing.

I am aware of a Veteran Circuit in the Pacific Coast section. At the SW region, I have kept an informal circuit with rolling points for past 3 years. Some of the issues are discussed further in the Texas Gulf Coast board forum (particularly the last of the 3 message threads):

http://campechesteel.proboards15.com...ead=1160797614

http://campechesteel.proboards15.com...ead=1138030680

http://campechesteel.proboards15.com...ead=1134531844


What are your ideas?

(and yes, Inq., I am listening)

[edew]

Our Bay Cup is slowly growing the veteran fencing community. We generally have a good turn out for foil and epee (in the 20s) and the saber has finally settled on consistent 10s. In a few years, we can expect to have women's veteran events in addition to mixed or men's only events.

[JEC]

We have offer Veteran women's events with the disclaimer that if less than 6 fencers are registered for the event, they will be combined with the men's event. The Fete de Luna in Houston has had about 25-35 Veteran fencers for Foil and Epee, and about 10-15 for Saber over the last few years. These Veteran tournaments are mixed gender and age-combined events. Ours in San Antonio is considerably smaller.

[chefencer]

Excuse my ignorance, but is the idea that a regional circuit would tempt those vets that aren't doing NAC's to come out and play or is it more opportunities = wider possibility of participation? I suspect for many vets the problem is time, for the spirit is willing, but life's schedule is full... When a division schedules a vet event and attendance is less than expected it makes it harder to make room the next season (much like Y's). Of course, you can't have chickens without eggs, but sometimes people get sick of waiting for their omelets...

Maybe we should have RVC's together with RYC's to save travel time for all the fencing parents...(Jr. fences @ Y12 foil 9am, Dad V40MS @ 1pm)

[edew]

It's ok if there's enough space and time to run 12 possible events on top of an existing 18 possible events.

Basically, USFA offers three national level competitions for veterans per year: the two NACs and the Summer Nationals. Those who need the practice against other vets (because there is a timing and speed issue that isn't consistent with fencing younger folks) could use another 4 or so large-level competitions in addition to the three USFA offers.

[fencerbill]

Another idea that has become popular at our Boston-area Veterans Challenges is Veterans Team competitions. People put together teams before they come and we have also had very good luck in putting together teams on the day of the event.

Together with Individual events, a Team event can give a person two events even if they only fence one weapon. We have had mixed teams in previous years years but not this last year. Similar to European team tournaments we have a minimum cumulative age requirement of 150 for men's teams. You can get a couple of 40 year olds courting a 70 year old to get a competitive team.

We have some (masochists?) who participate in 3 individual and 3 team events during our two day tournament. We have to be reasonable in letting people go back and forth between 2 events but it works out, our latest finish has been about 530 PM.

Adding the team events could be a significant tipping point in getting the Veterans to come to regional events. Tom Ciccarone of Candlewood FC has had experience in combining Youth and Veterans events at North Atlantic Sectional Championships.

Results and more information on Veterans Challenges is available at www.neusfa.org or from me.

[chefencer]

I would concur that team events are cool - and probably more appealing to Vets . We wanted to make it up your way this year for a vet event, but weren't able to swing it.
Our small club's demographics are a bit twisted as we're probably 20%Y, 30%Jr, 10%Sr, 40%V, with three braces of parent/child fencers.

[Montoya]

I would fence more Vet's events if they are strong. In practice, this means that I prefer mixed events - it's hard to find a really strong Vet women's events outside of NAC's and Nationals. I wish that the New England event had included a mixed team event as it has in the past - that would have been fun.

[jjefferies]

Originally Posted by edew

Our Bay Cup is slowly growing the veteran fencing community. We generally have a good turn out for foil and epee (in the 20s) and the saber has finally settled on consistent 10s. In a few years, we can expect to have women's veteran events in addition to mixed or men's only events.

Eric is correct that the Bay Cup has been a major incentive for Veterans in the SF Bay Area to continue to study, practice and stay in fencing. When I first attended a Bay Cup Vet epee event we were doing good to get a B1 event. Then we got one A fencer and then two to turn out. Today almost all Vet Epee events are A1 or better as we have grown the number of fencers and their ratings. The strong regional, three divisions participate in the Bay Cup, series is definitely a key.

It is notable though that the actual mix of technical details that will produce the strong regional series is still being tweaked. And I can't say that the USFA has been exactly helpful in building the regional circuit. Then there are the usual internal strifes within region which keep threatening the series. So it's not at all assured that such circuits will succeed and last.

[JEC]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

... I can't say that the USFA has been exactly helpful in building the regional circuit. Then there are the usual internal strifes within region which keep threatening the series. So it's not at all assured that such circuits will succeed and last.

It is my view that having Sections mandated by USFA to run Sectional Circuits at Youth, Senior, and Veteran levels would be a necessary step to prepare for NACs, seed more properly at NAC pools, and even potentially qualify for Championships. If you go back to how large youth or veteran events were in 1996 or 1997, you will see a large difference. For youth fencing, one major step was the creation of the RYC and sRYC events. Senior sectional circuits are also preparing fencers for the next level. Why not veteran circuits? If it is mandated as part of the functions of the section, it should work. Again, my 2 cents.

[edew]

No, RYCs and SYCs were created to deal with the ever growing youth fencing, not the other way around (that is, RYCs and SYCs made youth fencing grow).

Of course, since the RYCs were created, they have helped continue the growth of youth fencing and may even help increase the growth, but it's not clear whether the RYCs' existence made the increase in growth or that the increase would have occurred in any case.

It's true that youth-oriented clubs and regions would eventually have to create something akin to the RYC, which is what happened with the RYC that Kubik created in Texas and the Bay Cup in the Bay Area. That the RYC eventually took the Kubik model was probably slightly politics and probably slightly ease of explaining how to do them.

[D'Artag-NOT]

Maybe a little tolerance for recreational fencers?

Fencers who take up the sport at age 40 or later, as well as fencers who return to it after some years' hiatus post-college, aren't likely to be at the competitive level quite yet. If local clubs and competitions are hospitable to fencers who are still learning or re-learning the sport (and who possibly lack the time or funds to maintain a heavy competition schedule), then there will be more veteran fencers.

[piste off]

I like the idea of Vet comps for the fencers that are just being introduced into the sport.

However, in my area (New York and NJ) most of the good Vets are good enough to win or at least compete well in the open events, so I am not sure if there would be enough of a draw for experienced fencers in Vet Only comps around here.

Things are changing though, and part of it is that some Vets are comming back into the sport becuase their children are taking it up - so maybe there will be more interest going forward.

Rick

[Downtown]

It would seem advantageous to have some statistics on Vet fencers at present. I have seen (recently) a graph showing total number of Vet fencers,

I think it would be more beneficial if we knew the number by age and Division. Ratings would also come into play as I would guess that there are a fair number of Vet fencers who do not compete.

I do not know if the statistics even exist with the USFA. Even if they do, the USFA is very concerned over releasing information deemed private. This info does not seem all that private to me, but it may to them.

Hey…What do I know? I am just another low level late bloomer vet.

[D'Artag-NOT]

Originally Posted by Downtown

Hey…What do I know? I am just another low level late bloomer vet.

Comrade! Brother!

[wbowman]

I, for one, would welcome some Regional Veterans' Circuits, even though the schedule is already pretty full since I already fence a lot of open competitions in my own and neighboring divisions. The additional travel costs are also a factor to consider.
We've been having pretty good success recently in Virginia (and also the Capitol Division) with some small, but strong Vets' events. We did try mixing a Veterans' tournament with a Youth tournament in Virginia a few years ago and it didn't work well. Seems like an idea someone else might like to try, though.
Have to add my 2-cents worth on the former NCAA champion who showed up as a "U". Maybe he was just getting back into it, but the lack of local Veterans' events, to me, is no excuse. I'd think anyone who had been an NCAA champ could do well enough to pick up SOME kind of rating in local-level opens unless it's a real killer Division.

[JEC]

Some data from the Southwest Section, which represents about 10% of USFA membership.

2285 SWS members

14 - Associate members
4 - Coach Associate members
73 - Coach Competititive members
325 - Family Competitor members
274 - Family Non-competitor members
1003 - Junior members
32 - Life members
8 - Olympic Life members
3 - Paralympian Life Members
5 - Parent Associate members
397 - Senior members
7 - Supporting members (becoming life after 10 consecutive yrs)
140 - Veteran members

The problem is that quite a few of Coach competitive, family competitor, life, and Senior members are also VETERANS. I easily recognize at least 10 Veterans that are actively fencing under one of those categories (including myself). A conservative estimate for the number of veteran fencers (defined as being in a competitor category AND age) is about 200 Veteran Fencers in the SW section. A small biased test of this idea would be to examine membership type among the rated Veteran fencer group. Unfortunately, the only available data is for Rated Epee Veteran Fencers:

- 48% are correctly identified as Veteran Competitive members (46 of the 94 Veteran fencers).

The rest were:
1 Coach Associate,
12 Coach Competitive Members,
8 Family Competitor,
4 Life members,
5 Olympic life members,
1 Paralympian life member,
15 Senior members, and
2 Supporting members.

Now, for SWS Veterans having USFA ratings, we also have birthdate in the database:

Saber (1966 or earlier - 4 entries are '67 including 2 C) - 39/174 SWS rated fencers
3 B
3 C
10 D
23 E

Foil (1966 or earlier - 5 entries are '67 including 3 B) - 71/318 SWS rated fencers
1 A
4 B
15 C
19 D
32 E

Epee (1966 or earlier - 5 entries are '67 including 3 B) - 94/372 SWS rated fencers
12 A
20 B
16 C
17 D
29 E

Source: http://www.southwestfencing.org/

[chefencer]

Originally Posted by piste off

...
Things are changing though, and part of it is that some Vets are comming back into the sport becuase their children are taking it up - so maybe there will be more interest going forward.

Rick

It's only anecdotal, but I think this is a significant growth demographic - it's a two-fer sale based on both culture and national demographics - boomers and echoes.

Originally Posted by wbowman

I, for one, would welcome some Regional Veterans' Circuits, even though the schedule is already pretty full since I already fence a lot of open competitions in my own and neighboring divisions. The additional travel costs are also a factor to consider.
We've been having pretty good success recently in Virginia (and also the Capitol Division) with some small, but strong Vets' events. We did try mixing a Veterans' tournament with a Youth tournament in Virginia a few years ago and it didn't work well. Seems like an idea someone else might like to try, though.
...

I think combo (father/son, etc.) is cool idea. What if it didn't involve all weapons? Y and Vet foil, Y foil/Vet epee? At least this season (the first I've been paying attention) it seems the Vet and Y events bring in about the same number of entrants. Put them together, reduce the number of weapons and you've got a manageable tourney - mostly for fun, of course. I think a VRC should have all weapons, but a Y/Vet (March/December?) promotional event would be fun.