BF FIE foils

[tonyinlaw]

I was hoping someone could shed some light on BF FIE foils for me. I know of only three BF FIE foils that are on the market, the white, blue, and gold. I was wondering if there is any difference between these blades. The other thing is that I was told that BF has different catagories of blades, 1 being the highest and is only sold to national teams for world compitition and Olympics and the rest to vendors for resale. This doesn't make much sense to me why BF would not sell it's best blades to the general fencing public. Also, I have purchased 7 BF FIE white blades for my son in the last 18 months from Absolute and have been very satisfied with both the quality and price but I wanted to know how many different manufacturing trade marks does BF place on it's blades in addition to their own? The ones that I have seen are; TM, Uhlmann, Allstar and the last two had only a date of 11-06 in addition to the BF mark.

Thanks

[KD5MDK]

BF is a forge. Their blades are resold by various vendors who remark them, thus the Allstar, Uhlmann, etc. In general, there's nothing different between them. My understanding is that the BF Golds are only available from Triplette. I have never heard of different "grades" of BF blades.

[erooMynohtnA]

I think Leon Paul also sells BF golds. There's really no difference among whites, golds, and blues except that the whites are stiffer and the blues are whippier. However, you can find whippier whites and stiffer blues. It depends on the batch.

I've never heard of grades, but it makes sense that a company would hand select their best for international athletes. Free product placement.

The only thing BF puts on its blades is the FIE shield with the forge mark and date inside it. Everything else is added afterwords.

[Alex_Paul]

Originally Posted by erooMynohtnA

I think Leon Paul also sells BF golds. There's really no difference among whites, golds, and blues except that the whites are stiffer and the blues are whippier. However, you can find whippier whites and stiffer blues. It depends on the batch.

Yes we do.
Try telling that to the "experts" (customers) who seem to believe whatever they want. As far as we can tell there is no significant difference between the profile or materials of the three blades. BF do not market their blades as different and have never told us that there is any difference (and we are one of their largest customers!).

The only thing BF puts on its blades is the FIE shield with the forge mark and date inside it. Everything else is added afterwords.

Not quite true, the resellers mark is also put on by BF. It is done before the blade has it's final hardening. If you tried to stamp a blade after hardening you would find that it is practically impossible!

The other thing is that I was told that BF has different catagories of blades, 1 being the highest and is only sold to national teams for world compitition and Olympics and the rest to vendors for resale. This doesn't make much sense to me why BF would not sell it's best blades to the general fencing public.

Not true. BF don't supply direct to the public or to teams or team members. The top athletes get their kit from suppliers just like everyone else and are buying the same stuff you are. It is mostly pot luck with blades in terms of durability.

[brtech]

The "BF grades blades and X gets better blades" story comes up from time to time. I think we have to relegate that idea to the category of "Urban Legend". Now, it would seem to be that we also have to relegate the theory that there is a difference between BF Blue, White and Gold to be another Urban Legend.

Fencers being as superstitious as any set of athletes, we are likely to be unable to convince them that there is no difference, but at least we have some real facts (the factory doesn't claim to make them different), and some accumulated experience (one high volume dealer claims to not see any difference) that convinces me anyways that there is only normal forge variation between color and dealer.

There are those who claim that there is clear batch (date) difference. I could believe it, but I don't know that it's really true. I do know that forges strive to NOT have such differences, but I could easily believe they exist. Whether anyone with the kind of sample size a single fencer could experience could quantify any such difference seems at best, remote, but at least possible.

[Alex_Paul]

I am counting the seconds before someone comes and tells me that I am wrong and blues are better/longer lasting/flickier/softer/more variable then gold/white because their coach/mate/dog/a fat bloke down the pub told them so!

There may be batches that are slightly stiffer than others.As hammers wear they will gradually leave the finished blade slightly thicker. Likewise a batch made on a brand new grinding belt may have slightly more material taken off than one made on a worn belt and therefore be more flexible. The same batch made on a new grinding belt may also have more surface defects caused by the surface grit being large. As Brtech says batches may have some value when picking blades but it is very limited and not very accurate.

[tonyinlaw]

I really appreciate the input on the BF blades. Having the correct information helps with determining my purchase. It would be nice if BF and other manufactures would circulate information in regards to their blades. This would set the story straight and would give all of us the knowledge needed to make educated dicisions.
Thanks

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by tonyinlaw

It would be nice if BF and other manufactures would circulate information in regards to their blades. This would set the story straight and would give all of us the knowledge needed to make educated dicisions.

Ah, but some manufacturers benefit greatly from the "urban legends" about blades. Also, from a pure vendor, as opposed to manufacturer standpoint, the myths regarding more expensive blades are a good thing as they tend to favor the more expensive blades.

Some vendors suffer from the effect, and try very much to dispel the myths with limited success. TCA and the (unfounded as far as I can tell) rumors that their BF blades are seconds comes to mind. Uhlmann/Allstar gets a lot of milage out of the "Tier" system rumor as people think that the Uhlmann/Allstar stamped StM/BF/Vniti is going to be better than another brands. It is all marketing smoke and mirrors mostly.

LP is by far the most open about their blade designs of any manufacturer that I know, not just about their blades but all their gear. Just another reason to love them...

They ability of the F.net community to help (to a certain extent) cut through a lot of the BS and hype surrounding blades/gear is one of the great benefits of the service to the fencing community. And as I never get tired of saying, a service not provided by the USFA which we pay to be members off (don't get me started on the infomercial "reviews" section in the last issue of American Fencing...). Instead the service is hosted by Craig for free to the fencing community.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by Alex_Paul

I am counting the seconds before someone comes and tells me that I am wrong and blues are better/longer lasting/flickier/softer/more variable then gold/white because their coach/mate/dog/a fat bloke down the pub told them so!

Alex, I must say, the Uhlmann stamped BF FIE blues are the best of the bunch. Why? Cause I "think" they are, and therefore they are better for me...

I think part of the problem is that the BF blades are so very random from batch to batch and even in the same batch. Vendors and armourers see tons of blades from the same vendor. Fencers generally see a very small number. We (vendors/armourers) are in a position to directly compare apples to apples and have a whole basket of apples to pick through to get our information. Most fencers see a handful of high end blades a year and those are usually from the same batch due to the way most vendors put in their orders.

I think a "blind taste test" is called for! Here is my proposal:

Test one:
1. Take a representative sample of fencers (say 5-10 from each weapon) and lead them one at a time to the testing area where the blades are out of view.

2. Blindfold the tester and hand him a blade. Let them swing it around a bit and judge what blade it is from the feel.

3. Repeat through the blade samples and then lead in the next fencer.

Controls: Blades must be out of sight to the current and waiting reviewers. Blades must be straight cant with identical guards/grips/sockets/tips/pads. Blades should be "average" samples from the manufacturers.

Test two:

Have a sampling of random BF White, Blue and Gold FIE blades and one non-FIE blade.

1. Lead blindolded fencer to the testing area and allow them to work with the blade a bit and then "determine" what "flavor" of blade it is.

2. Repeat through test subjects.

Controls: Same as above.

I would really, really love to see the results of this test. Might be a fun project to do at Sum Nats this year...