Good Gamesmanship or Unsportsmanlike Conduct?

[parrythis]

Sometimes it’s called a “psyche”. Sometimes it’s called a “head game”. What I’m talking about are all those things we do to gain an edge that are not covered by the rules. We all do them. Sometimes it’s as simple as stepping up with an air of self-confidence that is intended to intimidate your opponent, or at least make them misjudge your potential. Sometimes it’s something more devious.

Perhaps some examples would illustrate…

In his book, “Winning Ugly”, Brad Gilbert tells of a match he had with Jimmy Connors. In this match Connors started clowning around between points, playing to the crowd, giving the impression that he wasn’t taking the match seriously. In fact, he was, but Conners' playing the clown eroded Brad’s concentration and commitment. It got him thinking that he did not have to give 100% to win, when in fact, Conners was bringing his full game on the court. Conners was playing a “head game” on Gilbert, making it appear that he was an easy mark when in fact he was far from it.

When I used to race sports cars in the SCCA, there was a story told of a person who would wander the paddock between races, making idle chit-chat with the other drivers and looking at their cars. In the course of a seemingly casual conversation, he would point something out on his competitor’s car and say something like, “Yeah, we tried it that way, but it blew apart in the middle of a race.” His purpose in making that comment (completely false, by the way) was to plant a seed of doubt in the mind of his competitors. He hoped that seed of doubt would sprout into unwarranted caution (and slower driving) on the track during the race by the competition.

There are a myriad of things we can do in fencing along these same lines. I’m not picking on anyone here, but one example I have heard of is that a person will stand near the piste when his team-mates are fencing. When a situation occurs requiring the referee’s opinion (who’s right of way, for example) the person will quickly (before the ref can talk) call out congratulations to his team-mate on whatever well-executed action would earn them the point (“Good parry-riposte, John”), regardless of whether they actually made that action, in an effort to influence the referee’s decision subliminally.

Being an older guy, many’s the time I have considered stepping onto the piste and displaying a bit of a gimp or portraying stiff joints, to give my opponent (especially the younger ones) the impression that I cannot move well. Then, during the bout, bring my full mobility to the game and run them ragged up and down the piste. (BTW, no, I have never actually tried this.)

My question is this. When is something brilliant gamesmanship and when is it playing dirty? What’s the difference? What is acceptable and what is not? Where do you draw the line?

Discuss… Illustrate… Debate… Enjoy!

(Note that this is not about things that are clearly addressed in the rules. This is about those things that the rules cannot begin to cover.)

[Brandj]

I was recently at a tournament in which an epeeist hooked up to a strip and yelled over to his opponent: If you forfeit now, you will get a better score than if you fence. Sure enough, the score at the end of the bout was 15-2 to the obnoxious one. Later I learned that they were from the same club, but at the time I thought that the fencer that made that comment made a completely braggy, horrible and yet brilliant comment. I am not siding with him, but he managed to completely wreck his opponent's mindset. Whether it was sportsman-like or not, it won him the bout, and to him that was all that mattered.

I think that was a very dirty way to win, and completely uncalled for. However, it was completely legal. I'll leave the ethics/morals of this for you guys to debate.

-Brand

[keith]

My question is this. When is something brilliant gamesmanship and when is it playing dirty? What’s the difference? What is acceptable and what is not? Where do you draw the line?

when I do it it is gamesmanship, when someone does it to me it is playing dirty. Simple.

[erooMynohtnA]

I think the epeeist probably would have won that bout anyway.

Most of the stuff you're citing as tactics to psyche out your opponent are ok with me. Here's why: they require your opponent to cooperate.

If you walk up to strip pretending to be stiff, your opponent has to believe you're old and slow. If you tell them their engine might blow out, they have to have a lack of faith in their equipment. If you act like you're not taking it seriously, it's your opponent's fault if he loses concentration. Basically, it's just mind games between you and your opponent and he can overcome them by ignoring them.

However, once you get into things like yelling "good riposte" from the sidelines, that's between the director and the bystander, and neither fencer has any say in what happens there. That's a pet peeve of mine, and I find it incredibly irritating, especially when someone from my side does it (even if they're right).

Things like taking your time in between touches to tie your shoes and pull up your socks just to ice your opponent (or catch your breath) also aren't ok with me. The other fencer has no say in that. It's not a mind game anymore, it's imposing a halt and being a jerk. If your shoes really are loose, it's a different story.

I don't really get into the gamesmanship aspect of fencing too much. The most I've done is fenced differently in a bout so my opponent in the next bout comes in with a bad plan. I'm not sure it's ever worked.

In a close bout, I like to think I wouldn't do anything I would normally consider unsportsmanlike, but I don't know. Touches I would normally acknowledge get no signal from me when the bout is close.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

I wear a pair of warm-up pants a lot of the time during the winter. They're not very well designed, and every time I take them off, I'm always worried that I'm about to fall over. Then I wonder how that would affect the bout--- I mean, really, how worried can you be when your opponent has just fallen on her ass when trying to take her pants off??? ---- It's never happened though.

One pretty powerful piece of Mind-**** was when I fenced epee with my FIE sabre mask, and as I was hooking up, I (very friendly like) mentioned to the (very friendly like) fencer who was my opponent that I wasn't supposed to be doing "this". She looked confused, and I held up my mask. It was the most expensive single piece of equipment anyone on my team owns. She knew that. I then proceded to (suprisingly easily) beat every single person on her squad.

To be fair, I really wasn't supposed to be doing that, and I fully expected to get creamed (as I would have by their sabre squad). So I really was just trying to be friendly........

: D

[Ordway]

Being an older guy, many’s the time I have considered stepping onto the piste and displaying a bit of a gimp or portraying stiff joints, to give my opponent (especially the younger ones) the impression that I cannot move well. Then, during the bout, bring my full mobility to the game and run them ragged up and down the piste. (BTW, no, I have never actually tried this.)

Hehe. The last couple tournaments I've fenced in (including this weekend's NAC), there were plenty of phrases in which I quite literally limped back to the en garde line, before putting my best effort in at the "fence" command. Alas, it had nothing whatsoever to do with attempting to psyche out my opponent, but it was because my front toe is injured and it #^%$#! hurt; I could forget it long enough to do a phrase (I have a pretty high pain tolerance) but not when I was walking back afterwards...

(I finally sprung for a new pair of shoes with a longer toe box. Sigh. Didn't really want to, but there's a limit to how much pain even I can take, and I realized I was basically re-injuring my toe twice a week at practice.)

[MUHSfencing]

Anyone read Stephen Potter's classic books on the subject?

heres an excerpt: http://www.heretical.com/potter/index.html

I find it a fascinating subject, though I've never tried anything like it on the piste - too busy just fencing.

Is it honorable? I don't know. It definitely seems appropriate to the fencing and much more interesting than the routine screaming and trash talking one may observe in other sports...

[piste off]

Most of the stuff you're citing as tactics to psyche out your opponent are ok with me. Here's why: they require your opponent to cooperate.

People should really try to understand the wisdom of this... It sounds simple, but ignoring all those tactics is the right approach. I actually have not let the "psyche" factor influence me in decades - and am too busy focusing on my own issues.

Rick

[tehcow]

Is it legal to talk to your opponent on the strip between points? I've only ever done it fencing friends, but a bit of friendly trash talk is enjoyable. When it gets malicious perhaps that crosses the line. The most gamesmanship I do is making an effort to be the second fencer ready at the beginning of the bout and looking at the ref a little bit longer than usual when I get a bad call. Neither of which I do with any regularity. In hard bouts I also get into a bad habit of asking the ref to test my weapon way too much, which I'm trying to stop myself from.

As a spectator, I often cheer before the call is made if I reckon that that fencer should get the point, but I don't phrase it for the referee. Just something like 'Nice hit X!' or just a wordless cheer. That seems alright to me but I haven't really thought about the moral consequences.

[D'Art]

I quite regularly do some of the things anthony moore reckons is crossing the line. Why? Because I can. If the other fencer or the ref is good enough it'll be useless and a waste of my energy. If not, it could be the difference between a quarter final and a gold medal. And I like having cheap, shiny bits of gold-coloured plastic - they boost my ego.

That said, the main reason I do these things is psychological, in that if I'm getting worked up and losing stupid hits, I'll go for a walk, calm myself down and get myself out of the rhythm which is giving my opponent easy hits. If it also buggers up my opponent in the process, then they're probably not savvy enough to beat me over the course of a 15 hit match anyway. Experience really does count for a lot in these cases.

[AndrewH]

One of the best tactics in this department is simply ignoring your opponent's attempts to throw you off your game. Hook up first and stand there, waiting for him to get ready. If he screams after a touch, come en guard and wait for him. If he lands a ridiculous touch, just come back en guard and pretend it didn't happen.

[TiKiWi]

Anyone think acting this way will affect your directors negatively?

[D'Art]

Anyone think acting this way will affect your directors negatively?

In an ideal world, it wouldn't. However, if you know your limits, then there won't be a problem, and you can get away with more when you're well-known in the area. It's only unsportsmanlike when the ref decides it is, and if they're good, you'll know pretty much straight away what you can/can't get away with.

[dridge]

In an ideal world, it wouldn't. However, if you know your limits, then there won't be a problem, and you can get away with more when you're well-known in the area. It's only unsportsmanlike when the ref decides it is, and if they're good, you'll know pretty much straight away what you can/can't get away with.

Well, this seem pretty straightforward to me. I know what it means when someone's trying to "get away" with something.

[fencerbill]

How about consistent marginal behavior by fencers from a club or with the same coach?

[Inquartata]

Point of order: We do NOT "all do it". I don't. Or at least I try not to do anything of that sort. I am engaged in a fencing bout, a test of skill and athleticism, and if I cannot beat you with skill and athleticism I do not deserve to beat you, period. I am not better than you, and therefore, I deserve to lose that contest. I disdain to trick a superior opponent with nonfencing "stuff".

There is a loooong thread on this issue somewhere.

[oiuyt]

Not quite related to gamesmanship, but an interesting anecdote that's close enough for me to pretend it's relevant:

Several years ago the New England Division wanted to schedule a division meeting in June. Normally such meetings are held in conjunction with tournaments in the (oft-futile) hope that some of the athletes will attend both. There was no tournament at the correct time, so they added a 2-person mixed team tournament to the schedule.

One of the teams included Caroline Purcell (NCAA Champion, ranked in the single digits in the country in WS at the time), who normally didn't fence locally.

Another of the teams included a fencer (Fencer X) who had been in the sport for a year or two at the time. When Caroline walked in, Fencer X's comment to her coach was that there was actually a bout she might have a chance in, figuring that here finally was someone who had been to even fewer tournaments. The coach, successfully concealing his actual reaction, gradually detached himself from the conversation, and made his way over to where several of us, including Caroline, were standing and relayed the comment.

In response the hosting club helped outfit Caroline in a borrowed, ratty, old lame, rather than her spiffy one with all the NAC/World Cup stamps. When it came time for the bout between Caroline and Fencer X, Caroline fumbled around with the reel clip, got assistance hooking up, came on guard like a newbie, and then proceeded to own the bout once the "Fence!" command was given.

Lesson for Fencer X? Don't pre-judge an opponent by appearance, and go into each bout respecting that one's opponent also has a weapon and is trying to hit you with it.

-B

[Inquartata]

Heh. A good counterbalance to the opposite lesson of "don't be afraid of the guy in expensive Uhlmann gear and visor mask, he could just be a newbie with money".

[keith]

Point of order: We do NOT "all do it". I don't. Or at least I try not to do anything of that sort. I am engaged in a fencing bout, a test of skill and athleticism, and if I cannot beat you with skill and athleticism I do not deserve to beat you, period. I am not better than you, and therefore, I deserve to lose that contest. I disdain to trick a superior opponent with nonfencing "stuff".

... of course you do it. Or rather I am sure that someone has at some stage stalked of the piste after a sound thrashing and used your canny gamesmanship as the excuse.

Gamesmanship is in the eye of the beholder - which is why, as pointed out by oiuyt's lovely tale, if you start wondering 'are they aren't they' you are in trouble.

[oiuyt]

Heh. A good counterbalance to the opposite lesson of "don't be afraid of the guy in expensive Uhlmann gear and visor mask, he could just be a newbie with money". :)

Don't forget the 11-year-old with name/country on back and country colors (or "Go faster stripes" for our British friends) on legs.

Of course all examples of the more general case of books and their covers.

-B