Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

Squall_Leonhart · 01-14-2007, 11:11 PM

This is a caveat for fencers who were considering the BG lexan mask for purchase, but didn't have a chance to try it on in person.

BG claims that the lexan window is only made by one company in Italy, and every brand is using it. I'm not arguing with the quality of the window.
Be very very careful when buying the mask. I suggest at least waiting to go see the vendor in person as that I've come across at least two masks ( one BG sabre and other some name(high-end) I don't recall) that aren't formed/poured in perfect curvature. There are small distortions in vision which may make one dizzy and lose touches.

BG's sabre mask ( and I image their foil and epee)'s forehead pad is set further back from the window hence decreasing the 180 degree possible vision down to less than 120. Just trying it on, I could see the metal frame through my peripheral vision even though I was looking straight through the window.

The Negrini mask's forehead pad isn't like that.

I did point this out to the BG people, but I'd be surprised if there was a revolution in their masks in the next few months.

Just thought I'd let all of you know lest you fall into the "not as happy can be customer pile" I usually hang out at.

erooMynohtnA · 01-15-2007, 12:16 AM

Yeah, that's pretty much what I would expect from BG. Instead of being careful when purchasing from them, I would just recommend not buying anything in the first place.

Purple Fencer · 01-15-2007, 12:43 AM

Or just don't buy a lexan mask unless you are required to do so.

Alex_Paul · 01-15-2007, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squall_Leonhart

BG claims that the lexan window is only made by one company in Italy, and every brand is using it. I'm not arguing with the quality of the window.

That is catagorically untrue.

We source our own in the UK from a small company that specialise in visors and protective plastic materials like aircraft canopies. It is true that the raw material polycarbonate is manufactured by only 2.

Actually nope, I stand corrected a vast majority is made buy two companies and sold as "lexan" and "Macralon" and several other companies manufacture a bit. This however is just the raw material.

Our visor is different to any other on the market, it is larger (better FOV), has a larger radias of curvature (less distortion) and comes pre treated with an anti mist coating.

Squall_Leonhart · 01-15-2007, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex_Paul

Our visor is different to any other on the market, it is larger (better FOV), has a larger radias of curvature (less distortion) and comes pre treated with an anti mist coating.

I thought the FIE specified the dimensions of the window, hence all brands who make these masks made their windows as large as possible.

DHCJr · 01-15-2007, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squall_Leonhart

I thought the FIE specified the dimensions of the window, hence all brands who make these masks made their windows as large as possible.

Only the maximum height (12 cm). 2.1.2.2 of the Appendix paragraph 2 and minimum thickness (3 mm) 5th bullet point. There is no maximum width which is what Alex is talking about.

AndrewH · 01-16-2007, 02:28 PM

I bought a BG lexan mask at the NAC. I tried it on and actually liked the extra visibility, plus it was pretty cheap compared to most others ($230). I've yet to really practice with it but I haven't noticed any distortion in the lexan. I'll see how it goes, but has anyone besides the OP had this issue?

DHCJr · 01-16-2007, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewH

I bought a BG lexan mask at the NAC. I tried it on and actually liked the extra visibility, plus it was pretty cheap compared to most others ($230). I've yet to really practice with it but I haven't noticed any distortion in the lexan. I'll see how it goes, but has anyone besides the OP had this issue?

Is it a BG mask or is it a Gajardoni or Negrini mask? On their web site they do list an 'Italian' FIE mask which means it is one of those, but it is a little more than the $230 ($390 Foil/Epee $399 Sabre). If it is actually a BG made mask than it is cheaper because it is not an FIE.

AndrewH · 01-16-2007, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DHCJr

Is it a BG mask or is it a Gajardoni or Negrini mask? On their web site they do list an 'Italian' FIE mask which means it is one of those, but it is a little more than the $230 ($390 Foil/Epee $399 Sabre). If it is actually a BG made mask than it is cheaper because it is not an FIE.

The back tab says "Blue Gauntlet FIE 2006".

DHCJr · 01-16-2007, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewH

The back tab says "Blue Gauntlet FIE 2006".

Sorry, I was not clear. Either on the tab or on the side a metal disk will be a circle about an 1" in diameter which has FIE at the bottom and a name above that and a date above that. The name in the circle is important. If it says BG or Blue Guantlet, then there may be a problem.

What does it say within the circle?

AndrewH · 01-16-2007, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DHCJr

Sorry, I was not clear. Either on the tab or on the side a metal disk will be a circle about an 1" in diameter which has FIE at the bottom and a name above that and a date above that. The name in the circle is important. If it says BG or Blue Guantlet, then there may be a problem.

What does it say within the circle?

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/2...6071704ph9.jpg

DHCJr · 01-16-2007, 05:19 PM

I hate to say it, but you got a great price because it is a fraud. Below is a list of FIE masks. If you notice there are only 5 masks listed at the bottom for visor masks. Blue Gauntlet does make a traditional FIE mask.

http://www.fie.ch/download/rules/fr/...E%20050922.pdf

How a visor mask is made. A traditional mask is made and a section cut out. A frame is then placed in the hole and welded in place and then the visor itself. Considering the frame is the biggest problem you don't know if they are doing it properly as they have not gotten certification.

Considering these are your protection for your eyes and your life, I would ask for your money back.

I am going to pass on this information to Dan DeChaine. They should not be selling masks reported as FIE that are not FIE.

AndrewH · 01-16-2007, 05:31 PM

Hm...

My french is pretty limited but it seems like that list of approved masks was last updated March 15 2005... while my mask has a 2006 date. Is it possible that it was approved but the list hasn't been updated yet?

DHCJr · 01-16-2007, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewH

Hm...

My french is pretty limited but it seems like that list of approved masks was last updated March 15 2005... while my mask has a 2006 date. Is it possible that it was approved but the list hasn't been updated yet?

This is the FIE, not the USFA. When there is an update, it is up on the web site within days. Dan wasn't home, so I couldn't ask him. I will check if there is an updated list.

Here is the blade list. As you can see it was updated 5 days ago.

http://www.fie.ch/download/rules/fr/...2020070111.pdf

In 2003 there were 14 that were approved. Because of the much tougher standards there were only 4. In 2005 Negrini was added.

The other item that bothers me I mentioned before. On Blue Gauntlet's web site they mention a 'Italian' made FIE mask. Blue Gauntlet is not an Italian company.

I would still contact them and ask for a copy of their homoligation certificate and make sure it says Blue Gauntlet. Without proof, you don't have much recourse.

AndrewH · 01-16-2007, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DHCJr

Look at it again 20060922 or September 22, 2006. The last time a visor mask was approved was March 15, but the approved list is from September 22.

This is the FIE, not the USFA. When there is an update, it is up on the web site within days. Dan wasn't home, so I couldn't ask him. I will check if there is an updated list.

In 2003 there were 14 that were approved. Because of the much tougher standards there were only 4. In 2005 Negrini was added.

The other item that bothers me I mentioned before. On Blue Gauntlet's web site they mention a 'Italian' made FIE mask. Blue Gauntlet is not an Italian company.

I would still contact them and ask for a copy of their homoligation certificate and make sure it says Blue Gauntlet. Without proof, you don't have much recourse.

When I was at their stand in Columbus, they showed me an "italian" visor mask different from the BG one, this "italian" one had red lining (so not Negrini obviously). As for the BG one, the email link on their site doesn't work so I'll call their # tomorrow and ask about the certificate.

KD5MDK · 01-16-2007, 06:23 PM

DHCJr - My suspiscion is they are cutting their homologated FIE regular masks to create the visor ones, and not marking out the already printed tab.

DHCJr · 01-16-2007, 06:42 PM

That was my suspicion. The problem is they took a mask they could sell as a FIE mask legally and after all that work they no longer have a FIE mask and what's more they create a bad impression on their customers.

They would not be the first to do something like this. I will try getting back to Dan in a few days.

KD5MDK · 01-16-2007, 08:00 PM

Right, but I consider this a far lesser sin than falsifying an FIE stamp that never was approved. Not bothering to remove a mark is probably just laziness.

Purple Fencer · 01-16-2007, 08:12 PM

GAH! And after all the crap with the Triplette "FIE" mask....

bigdawg2121 · 01-16-2007, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewH

I bought a BG lexan mask at the NAC. I tried it on and actually liked the extra visibility, plus it was pretty cheap compared to most others ($230). I've yet to really practice with it but I haven't noticed any distortion in the lexan. I'll see how it goes, but has anyone besides the OP had this issue?

Yes. I've tried on the Gajardoni (or generic Italian), LP, and the Negrini (which I own). I have not tried the PBT (which a lot of NY fencers seem to have...did Yuri maybe get a good deal on them or are they carried in the FC store?) or the ALLSTAR. In my experience the Gajardoni has a significant bit of distortion because of the sharper angle to it's curve in the glass and also screws with depth perception b/c of the distance it sits away from your face. You'd adjust but I don't think you could go back to using a standard mask so readily. I also think there would be glare issues as it seems to refract light like crazy (comparatively). The BG I absolutely hated. The plate was really small, sharply curved and it sat far away from your face. The entirety of the frame was definitely within my field of view, which is not only annoying and hard to focus past but meant that there were blind spots too. In my experience the LP and Negrini masks have a much flatter curve and both offer essentially no distortion (it's like looking out of a window...it's still a touch odd at first but easy to adjust to and I can use standard masks to practice with and not worry about differences in depth perception and effects to my distance). The LP window is the widest (as mentioned) which does shave off some target area for you but in neither mask is the frame visible and blind spots are virtually negligible as they are outside of the range of vision one would use while fencing (unless one is in the habit of wearing one's mask twisted to the side and likes focusing way off to the side as well). The only time the frame is visible in these masks is if you choose to stop looking ahead and focus down toward your chin in which case you can see the very bottom of it (oddly I think this could be semi-useful if one needs to look at something that's normally out of sight to refocus or clear your head without doing the whole mask removal production). As for the PBT and Allstar versions I can only say that I've seen fogging on the PBTs (but not on either the Negrini or LP) and that I've never seen an Allstar and been aware of it. Suffice it to say that at the moment I'm mostly convinced that the LP and Negrini's are the only models worth buying really. I'm kinda sorry you went for the BG Andrew, especially since it would seem to not really be FIE approved...I got my Negrini for 305. If you're spending that much for one of the damned things you might as well spend the little extra right?