Lexan Window

[fencerbill]

And they have extended it to be a requirement for the last two Veterans World Championships.

Who wants to look at wrinkled prunes?

[AndrewH]

Originally Posted by Aussie_Fencer

What is the point of buying a visor mask any way? it really isnt any better then any of the regular masks.

I like the extra visibility. It does make it easier to see, especially because my eyes are bad to begin with. Oh, and the target area thing is a plus also.

P.S. It's also fun to stare down the opponent while waiting for the fence command.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Aussie_Fencer

What is the point of buying a visor mask any way? it really isnt any better then any of the regular masks.

The rationale was so TV audiences could see the fencer's expressions better....which is bull####....the fencers who have to wear them wither whip them off after every touch, or their expression is one of intense concentration....either way, it was a stupid decision for little benefit.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by brtech

It's January 06. I don't know why, but that is the way they do it.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by fencerbill

Who wants to look at wrinkled prunes?

I resemble that remark.

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

The rationale was so TV audiences could see the fencer's expressions better....which is bull####....the fencers who have to wear them wither whip them off after every touch, or their expression is one of intense concentration....either way, it was a stupid decision for little benefit.

That's it, you are SO going on M. Roch's list now!

[Aussie_Fencer]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

The rationale was so TV audiences could see the fencer's expressions better....which is bull####....the fencers who have to wear them wither whip them off after every touch, or their expression is one of intense concentration....either way, it was a stupid decision for little benefit.

well i knew that much, and yeah, it isnt very good any ways. you could buy two perfectly good fie masks, for the price of one of those.

[bigdawg2121]

I've never been able to get an FIE saber mask for $150...eh, nix that; I haven't been able to get an FIE saber mask for $150 since around the time the the Euro hit 1.09 or so (estimated, but it's been a while).

[Aussie_Fencer]

not talking bout sabre. sorry

[DHCJr]

I just got this from Barry Paul. It is the requirements for fencing clothing for Common Europe. This is going to give me reading for a while. It appears well defined and clear from first glance. Page 19 has the requirements for mask bibs. CE-1 is 350 Newton and CE-2 (FIE) is 1600 Newtons.

Barry further states the CE-2 requirements throughout the manual is used by the FIE for their requirements.

[AndrewH]

Blue Guantlet just called me, apparently the mask has passed FIE approval but there is some delay with the paperwork, it will be official on Feb. 15.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by AndrewH

Blue Guantlet just called me, apparently the mask has passed FIE approval but there is some delay with the paperwork, it will be official on Feb. 15.

Will the approval be back-dated? If not, you still would not have an FIE mask. The mask you have is dated 2006. I'll be checking the FIE web-site.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by AndrewH

Blue Guantlet just called me, apparently the mask has passed FIE approval but there is some delay with the paperwork, it will be official on Feb. 15.

Andrew I have bad news for you. The FIE has approved the Blue Gauntlet Visor mask for 2007. This means your mask is not an FIE. It is your decision what you are going to do. You can use it at NAC's, but if you might do international I would see about getting it replaced.

[Rick Shellhouse]

Oh joy,,,,

Lets start by stating I happen to be a HUGE fan of lexans...


Lets second that by stating my wife just retired her 20+ year old Zivkovic Lexan which still passes , she retired it because the lexan would have to be hand fabricated due to the age of the mask which woiuld require sending the mask back to Ben. (Its now hanging in the office on display)

It never fogged up on her.
It never made it hard to breathe.
It never gave her vision issues.
It never cracked , yellowed, or "aged"

It still has the original lexan in it.

I bought her a rather well known brand of mask to try to get her to retire this one a couple of years ago.It developed a "divot" in the lexan , was placed back in the bag while she continued using her Zivkovic one....

I finally got her to retire the Zivkovic one buy getting her a new one from Ben.

R

[downunder]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

I just got this from Barry Paul. It is the requirements for fencing clothing for Common Europe. This is going to give me reading for a while. It appears well defined and clear from first glance. Page 19 has the requirements for mask bibs. CE-1 is 350 Newton and CE-2 (FIE) is 1600 Newtons.

Barry further states the CE-2 requirements throughout the manual is used by the FIE for their requirements.

CE stands for Conformité Européenne and is a set of directives of minimium standards for equipment sold in the European Economic Area. As i understand it, fencing falls under the personal protective clothing directive.

A full list of these directives can be found here: http://www.newapproach.org/Directives/DirectiveList.asp


It makes things very easy in terms of plastron checking as i can look for the CE-1 for the little kids and know that it is definately 350N as opposed to a label that means about as much as the cloth is it printed on. 800N i can check both the FIE badge and the CE-2 level.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by downunder

CE stands for Conformité Européenne and is a set of directives of minimium standards for equipment sold in the European Economic Area. As i understand it, fencing falls under the personal protective clothing directive.

A full list of these directives can be found here: http://www.newapproach.org/Directives/DirectiveList.asp


It makes things very easy in terms of plastron checking as i can look for the CE-1 for the little kids and know that it is definately 350N as opposed to a label that means about as much as the cloth is it printed on. 800N i can check both the FIE badge and the CE-2 level.

I would like to put a caveat on what I wrote. The trouble is what is a valid CE label. This problem came up yesterday at a meet. Some fencers just bought some masks with CE labels and nothing else. There was no manufacturers mark anywhere on the mask. From what I know (the manufacturer must be listed on any CE product (section 6)) I would say this was a fradulent mark. A vendor who is looking to start making clothing found out the certificate supplied by the factory that was going to produce the clothing was a fake. With masks and blades the FIE supplies list of certified manufacturers. So we have that (as long as there are no faked manufacturers marks). It would be nice if there was a list of CE certified clothing.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Rick Shellhouse

Lets second that by stating my wife just retired her 20+ year old Zivkovic Lexan which still passes

From poking around the web it looks like the 1st generation Zivkovic lexan masks approved by the FIE were from 1995. 2nd gen 1998. (note: neither are currently approved for FIE use, AFAIK)

PBT makes the masks Zivkovic currently rebrands and sells. They got their initial approval in 1999.

While it's clearly possible that Ben was making them for close to a decade prior to receiving FIE approval, are you sure you don't mean 10+ year old Zivkovic Lexan?

-B

[Rick Shellhouse]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

From poking around the web it looks like the 1st generation Zivkovic lexan masks approved by the FIE were from 1995. 2nd gen 1998. (note: neither are currently approved for FIE use, AFAIK)

PBT makes the masks Zivkovic currently rebrands and sells. They got their initial approval in 1999.

While it's clearly possible that Ben was making them for close to a decade prior to receiving FIE approval, are you sure you don't mean 10+ year old Zivkovic Lexan?

-B

I stand corrected...I pulled it out and the first stamp is 1995. So its 12+years old....lol..stil incredibly well built and the fact she hasnt had all the issue everyone claims still stands...

It does have a FIE badge on it though....


R

[Squall_Leonhart]

As for the "breathability" of the mask, think of Pythagorean theorem (very crude example, but it was the best one I could think of.) The legs of the triangle are "a" and"b". Hypoteneuse is "c." Everyone still following? the shortest path from nose to mask (parallel to floor, perpendicular to mask) is one of the legs.
The shortest path ("a" or "b") is how air most readily flows in and out with breathing with the typical mesh mask.

Lexans, however, block out the shortest path but maybe a couple of centimeters, altering the path of airflow. That being said, your facial nerves, which are very sensitive to pressure changes, can feel the rebound of hot air( C02/water...hence the steaming up of the lexan) off the lexan, hence making you feel stuffy and blah inside. When breathing in ( oh, I love mechanical physics!), air has a lower pressure because of the greater distance it must cover in the same amount of time your lungs will expand ( think of air plane wings, or bottle necking pipes...sort of). So, one will feel the whoosh! of air through the lexan on one's face, hence thinking, " uhm...I feel like I need air, must have air!".....
Personally, although I can't prove it unless I broke into the physics lab here, those are my suspicions. I think they're plausible. Anyone disagree ( I'm sure it's out ther)?

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by Squall_Leonhart

As for the "breathability" of the mask, think of Pythagorean theorem (very crude example, but it was the best one I could think of.) The legs of the triangle are "a" and"b". Hypoteneuse is "c." Everyone still following? the shortest path from nose to mask (parallel to floor, perpendicular to mask) is one of the legs.
The shortest path ("a" or "b") is how air most readily flows in and out with breathing with the typical mesh mask.

Lexans, however, block out the shortest path but maybe a couple of centimeters, altering the path of airflow. That being said, your facial nerves, which are very sensitive to pressure changes, can feel the rebound of hot air( C02/water...hence the steaming up of the lexan) off the lexan, hence making you feel stuffy and blah inside. When breathing in ( oh, I love mechanical physics!), air has a lower pressure because of the greater distance it must cover in the same amount of time your lungs will expand ( think of air plane wings, or bottle necking pipes...sort of). So, one will feel the whoosh! of air through the lexan on one's face, hence thinking, " uhm...I feel like I need air, must have air!".....
Personally, although I can't prove it unless I broke into the physics lab here, those are my suspicions. I think they're plausible. Anyone disagree ( I'm sure it's out ther)?

My observation concerning the breathability and fogging of visor masks is this:

It is critically dependent on convection airflow vertically behind the visor. The limiting factors on this are the minimum unobstructed area both above and below the visor as well as the clearance between the face and the visor. The area above the visor is usually the larger, although it can be restricted by the forehead arrangement of the mask.

The area below the visor is more often the smaller area and is usually limited by the chin padding arrangement of the mask.

My experience with visor masks is limited but I have discussed this with several fencers with lots of experience. Also by looking at the masks preferred and not preferred by these fencers. And their observations on which fog up more and which less.

I was able to improve one fencer's experience with his less preferred mask by just folding over the chin padding, making it more like his preferred mask. This increased the airflow and decreased the fogging.

An alternative is to modify the padding for the forehead and chin to increase the separation between the face and the visor.