Lexan Window

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Certainly the date on the shield of my mask has been checked at both NACs where it's been presented. Strong implication by the armorers that the 2-year requirement was going to be enforced. In one case I was explicitly told by the armorer checking my mask that I had less than a year remaining (date is 10/05, so I have until October before needing a new shield).

-B

As I stated above, both these masks were bought at Summer Nationals. What I didn't say and I should have is both had Summer National stamps. From this I gathered the USFA was not checking the dates. This is lack of communication. Something as important as this should be distributed. Not just rumors.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

As I stated above, both these masks were bought at Summer Nationals. What I didn't say and I should have is both had Summer National stamps. From this I gathered the USFA was not checking the dates. This is lack of communication. Something as important as this should be distributed. Not just rumors.

Mmmm, okay. I bought my mask at SN (last day, didn't get it inspected), so every check I've had done on it has been more recent than that. It's possible either a) checking procedures have changed between our data points, or b) different armorers are/aren't enforcing the FIE rule at domestic tournaments.

-B

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Mmmm, okay. I bought my mask at SN (last day, didn't get it inspected), so every check I've had done on it has been more recent than that. It's possible either a) checking procedures have changed between our data points, or b) different armorers are/aren't enforcing the FIE rule at domestic tournaments.

-B

You hit the nail on the head 'the FIE rule'. The USFA specifically states that FIE masks are not required. I know I am 'preaching to the choir' and 'I am starting to sound like a broken record', but we need regular communication from the USFA of what the standards are for the USFA.

There is another problem. What about anyone who has a pre-2004 mask. As has been talked about above different brands have different size visors and many brands who made visor masks before 2004 no longer make them. The other problem is some who are still making masks have changed their design. Many had holes for the screws drilled in the mask. Are these masks now illegal for USFA competitions.

[brtech]

We check visor masks for the date. We allow 2 years. We checked them at Summer Nationals. We took the visor out to check the dates on the older PBTs.

Armorers in general are very uneasy about the lexan, because we can't test it. When we were allowed to at least age them out, we jumped on it, because it's something. Of course, we all know that age alone is not the critical factor, but it's A factor.

If you have a visor mask, change the lexan when it gets to 2 years. Change it if it has a significant scratch. Change it if you have ANY doubt whatsoever about it's integrity. We will be checking dates at NACs and we will not permit lexan older than 2 years.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by brtech

We check visor masks for the date. We allow 2 years. We checked them at Summer Nationals. We took the visor out to check the dates on the older PBTs.

Armorers in general are very uneasy about the lexan, because we can't test it. When we were allowed to at least age them out, we jumped on it, because it's something. Of course, we all know that age alone is not the critical factor, but it's A factor.

If you have a visor mask, change the lexan when it gets to 2 years. Change it if it has a significant scratch. Change it if you have ANY doubt whatsoever about it's integrity. We will be checking dates at NACs and we will not permit lexan older than 2 years.

That still doesn't answer the question about the masks I saw at LBI. Every body knows I am against the Visor masks, but I can not see justification for applying FIE mask rules when we are ignoring and not applying USFA mask rules. What if you can not change your visor, because of the design change?

[brtech]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

That still doesn't answer the question about the masks I saw at LBI. Every body knows I am against the Visor masks, but I can not see justification for applying FIE mask rules when we are ignoring and not applying USFA mask rules. What if you can not change your visor, because of the design change?

You said you had two masks with SN stamps, one with an old date, one with no visible date. The date that was not visible could have been less than 2 years old; you would have had to take the visor off to check it. Checking the date is a new requirement. We were all told to perform this check in our initial armory meeting. It's possible that some masks presented during SN were not checked for this requirement inadvertently. I know that I probably let at least one go without checking myself.

If the lexan is out of date, you can't fence with it at a USFA tournament, period. If you can't get a replacement visor, you'll have to get a new mask.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by brtech

If the lexan is out of date, you can't fence with it at a USFA tournament, period. If you can't get a replacement visor, you'll have to get a new mask.

I would like to see this in writing from the national office.

I will ask you a question. Here is a Leon Paul CE-2 Mask sold on this site.
http://shop.fencing.net/PhotoGallery...Code=LP%2DF100

This is the description of this mask.

http://shop.fencing.net/PhotoGallery...Code=LP%2DF100

According to the USFA rule book can this mask ever be used in a USFA competition? This is a trick question as the answer is no. In fact, there is no non-FIE mask that I know of that is legal for USFA competition.

If a fencer brought up a visor mask that did not meet FIE requirements while allowing other masks that didn't even meet USFA requirements, they would have a valid justification for a protest.

I would like to see all visor masks banned, but I am against arbritary adding rules by Armorers.

Check the note on page 54 for the trick question.

[brtech]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

I would like to see this in writing from the national office.

I will ask you a question. Here is a Leon Paul CE-2 Mask sold on this site.
http://shop.fencing.net/PhotoGallery...Code=LP%2DF100
...
According to the USFA rule book can this mask ever be used in a USFA competition? This is a trick question as the answer is no. In fact, there is no non-FIE mask that I know of that is legal for USFA competition.

Presumably you mean:

Note: An FIE certified mask is not required for USFA
competition, provided it conforms to the specifications
described in Appendix A, with the exception that the bib
needs to be resistant to 700 Newtons.

and the LP mask states it is 350 Newtons, and thus not 700.

I have no explanation. We allow such masks. We allow FIE visor masks, provided they have a lexan shield dated within 2 years of the tournament.

I'll inquire.

[AndrewH]

Originally Posted by brtech

I have no explanation. We allow such masks. We allow FIE visor masks, provided they have a lexan shield dated within 2 years of the tournament.

Ok brtech, if I present to you my (apparently) non-FIE visor mask, with current lexan, would it get passed?

[brtech]

If I were head tech, given what I have been told so far, I would say, yes, you would be allowed to fence with it. We may advise you that it would not be allowed in a world cup.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by brtech

Presumably you mean:

and the LP mask states it is 350 Newtons, and thus not 700.

I have no explanation. We allow such masks. We allow FIE visor masks, provided they have a lexan shield dated within 2 years of the tournament.

I'll inquire.

Thank you. The 700 newton rule is not a new rule. It was in the last edition of the rule book and I did question Bill Oliver about it when it first came out. He said he would look into it.

The problem for those of us who do not go to National Tournaments for whatever reason have only the rule book and the Athletes Handbook to go by. If I were to fail a mask because of a FIE safety rules where USFA safety rules are enforced I could be successfully sued and I can't afford to buy someone a new mask. Every time I am an Armorer at a tournament I pray no one will be hurt in the throut or any non-FIE bib gets puntured. I can just picture being asked if I had followed all the safety rules.

Thank you again. If you can get communication flowing from the national office that will help all.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by AndrewH

Ok brtech, if I present to you my (apparently) non-FIE visor mask, with current lexan, would it get passed?

If you presented it to me, I would examine how scratched or otherwise deteriorated the Lexan was and, based on what I observed, decide whether I would pass it or not.

The date is a crutch, armorers still must make a basic determination that the mask is safe to use for that tournament.

I don't know a lot about Lexan but what should be done with a Lexan mask window that had never been used but either had no date or a date over two years old?

Good gracious, I understand that Lexan is the material used for aircraft, including jet fighters that fly at multiples of the speed of sound, for periods of time which probably frequently exceed two years and probably much longer.

My guess is that the FIE has made an approximation that a Lexan face mask will probably be used so much during a two year period that it should be replaced.

For some fencers it should probably be replaced sooner than two years. And the date is the date of manufacture, not the date placed in use. Who knows how long it may have lain around not being used.

Some sources give you a spare Lexan window with your mask. Should you periodically swap your two windows back and forth so that they both accumulate the same amount of use before they must be set aside because the clock has ticked off 63,072,000 seconds since they were manufactured?

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

If you presented it to me *huge snip*

Of course, if Roch had actually LISTENED to SEMI and Medical and not pushed these things through, this wouldn't even be an issue....

[AndrewH]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

Of course, if Roch had actually LISTENED to SEMI and Medical and not pushed these things through, this wouldn't even be an issue....

Hey, I really like mine...

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by AndrewH

Hey, I really like mine...

Doesn;t change the fact that TWO commissions said it was a bad idea...and the rationale behind them is total horse-crap.

[Inquartata]

So, how is the date read? I have a friend with one of these, and the only number to be seen on the Lexan is 0601, arranged vertically, read top to bottom. Is that supposed to mean January of 2006, or June of 2001? Or isn't that even the date number?

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

So, how is the date read? I have a friend with one of these, and the only number to be seen on the Lexan is 0601, arranged vertically, read top to bottom. Is that supposed to mean January of 2006, or June of 2001? Or isn't that even the date number?

I wonder if that's not a matter of european style dating. Given that euro dates are day/month/year (instead of month/day/year over here), would it not nbe possible that it's year/month?

A stretch....

[brtech]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

So, how is the date read? I have a friend with one of these, and the only number to be seen on the Lexan is 0601, arranged vertically, read top to bottom. Is that supposed to mean January of 2006, or June of 2001? Or isn't that even the date number?

It's January 06. I don't know why, but that is the way they do it.