Lexan Window

[Squall_Leonhart]

BG said something about the timing of getting their mask approved by the FIE...maybe the list isn't updated?

[keith]

Originally Posted by Squall_Leonhart

BG said something about the timing of getting their mask approved by the FIE...maybe the list isn't updated?

In which case they should be able to fax you a copy of the letter they have from the FIE.

If they do not have that I would suggest that you demand that they accept the return for full value or you send your complaint to the relevant people (USFA, FIE and your states consumer affairs). You could also swear that you would not let this thread die.......

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by bigdawg2121

As for the PBT and Allstar versions I can only say that I've seen fogging on the PBTs (but not on either the Negrini or LP)

I own an LP lexan mask and have had fogging issues 2 of the ~6 times I've worn it.

The first was my second time wearing it, when I was fencing at a club for the evening. Fairly warm temperatures with very high humidity in the club (and raining outside). Pervasive fogging every 3-4 touches that resulted in marginal visibility at best. Rather than constantly be wiping it, I took it as an opportunity to practice fencing when I can't see my opponent's blade, but rather have to guesstimate where it is and what it's doing based on the vague blob-shaped object that I took to be my opponent. Prise de fers are considerably harder, but still possible, in such circumstances (granted I was also fairly familiar with the styles and actions of my opponents).

The second was towards the end of the Hangover Classic in Richmond. Nothing particularly noteworthy about temperature or humidity at the tournament that I can recall. Very minimal fogging at the very bottom of the lexan at a couple of points during the L4 and L2 bouts. Nothing that affected my fencing, even enough that I felt the need to try to clear the visor.

-B

[AndrewH]

Originally Posted by bigdawg2121

I'm kinda sorry you went for the BG Andrew, especially since it would seem to not really be FIE approved...I got my Negrini for 305. If you're spending that much for one of the damned things you might as well spend the little extra right?

Well, I practiced with it today, and I actually didn't notice the frame blocking my vision. It threw off my depth perception at first but I seemed to adjust to it readily enough. The price was really the only reason I bought one in the first place, considering I don't really "need" one. If I had to pay more than I did for this one, I would probably just stick to my regular mask. I guess I'll see how it goes when I actually compete with it but for now it's working out fine.

[bigdawg2121]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

I own an LP lexan mask and have had fogging issues 2 of the ~6 times I've worn it.

The first was my second time wearing it, when I was fencing at a club for the evening. Fairly warm temperatures with very high humidity in the club (and raining outside). Pervasive fogging every 3-4 touches that resulted in marginal visibility at best. Rather than constantly be wiping it, I took it as an opportunity to practice fencing when I can't see my opponent's blade, but rather have to guesstimate where it is and what it's doing based on the vague blob-shaped object that I took to be my opponent. Prise de fers are considerably harder, but still possible, in such circumstances (granted I was also fairly familiar with the styles and actions of my opponents).

The second was towards the end of the Hangover Classic in Richmond. Nothing particularly noteworthy about temperature or humidity at the tournament that I can recall. Very minimal fogging at the very bottom of the lexan at a couple of points during the L4 and L2 bouts. Nothing that affected my fencing, even enough that I felt the need to try to clear the visor.

-B

Hmm, fair enough... I have not had any fogging issues with my Negrini personally but I did notice that it was harder to breath than with the standard mask comparatively (which took some practicing to get used to etc). Andrew I hope it treats you well for the duration of your time with it(and that it is actually homologated).

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by bigdawg2121

Hmm, fair enough... I have not had any fogging issues with my Negrini personally but I did notice that it was harder to breath than with the standard mask comparatively

That was one of the concerns of the medical commission that Roch ignored, as I recall....that and the attendant CO2 retention rates because of the solid shield.

[pancavalier41]

(I don't own one of these masks, but I haven't seen anyone mention this)

I know for hockey visors, hockey shops have anti-fog spray that protect from fogging the visors on the ice. You simply spray it on the inside of the visor, wipe it down and you are ready to play. Maybe that can help with the fogging problem.

[AndrewH]

Originally Posted by bigdawg2121

Andrew I hope it treats you well for the duration of your time with it(and that it is actually homologated).

Well if you see me fencing with the old mask on saturday, you'll know that one of the above wasn't true.

[DHCJr]

I got a reply back from Dan and this was his reply, "Until it is on the list, it aint approved. Now the ball is in Blue Gauntlet's court. They had better get Eduardo to put it on the list ASAP or it will have to be rejected in any competition where it is presented."

I would still get a copy of the certificate, just for your own piece of mind.

One other warning about Lexan masks. At the last LBI I inspected 2 visor masks that were bought at the last Summer Nationals. They werre both dated 2006 and were both on the list. The problem is the PBT had no date what-so-ever visible on the visor and the Allstar had a date from 1999. I warned them both they were illegal and dangerous.

The FIE recognizes that the lexan deteriates and must be replaced every two (2) years from date of manufacture. They also have in the rules that these masks should be kept in a separate bag, not in your fencing bag and be kept away from PVC like that on tubes used on the blades. Also it should not be put in the Airplane hold. These are in the rule book. These rules do not worry about traditional masks. That sounds to me that if you treat a visor mask the same as you would a traditional mask, it is not as safe.

[brtech]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

One other warning about Lexan masks. At the last LBI I inspected 2 visor masks that were bought at the last Summer Nationals. They werre both dated 2006 and were both on the list. The problem is the PBT had no date what-so-ever visible on the visor and the Allstar had a date from 1999. I warned them both they were illegal and dangerous.

In early PBTs, the lexan is marked in an area that is under the frame. If you take the lexan out, you can see the date. They fixed this, so newer lexan has the date visible with the lexan in the frame.

[oiuyt]

For reference, the safety standards in the rulebook referred to by DHC:

Originally Posted by USFA Rulebook

3. Safety standards
All transparent visor masks must provide a high level of safety for fencers. They must therefore comply with very severe standards and in particular:
— The whole structure of the mask must be rigid and not be distorted as a result of violent shocks.
— The metallic mesh and the bib must have the same strength characteristics as those of traditional masks.
— Because of ageing of the plastic material, the polycarbonate visor must only be used for two years after its manufacture and, therefore, the date of manufacture (year and month) must be indicated on it very clearly.
— To avoid degrading the polycarbonate, all contact with chemical agents that can damage the material must be prevented; in particular, any presence of PVC is unacceptable.
— The mask should be kept in a protective bag and it is desirable to
avoid putting the mask in the fencing bag (and hence in the aircraft hold) during airplane journeys, but rather to keep it in hand luggage.

-B

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by brtech

In early PBTs, the lexan is marked in an area that is under the frame. If you take the lexan out, you can see the date. They fixed this, so newer lexan has the date visible with the lexan in the frame.

So we can assume the lexan in the PBT was out of date also. There is the old adage 'Buyer beware' and getting a visor mask makes this important.

[bigdawg2121]

So, as I didn't make the trip this weekend, how is the BG Visor mask treating you Andrew?

[brtech]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

So we can assume the lexan in the PBT was out of date also. There is the old adage 'Buyer beware' and getting a visor mask makes this important.

Not necessarily. I've seen some 2005 dates in the old style. Many of them are aging out though.

[AndrewH]

Originally Posted by bigdawg2121

So, as I didn't make the trip this weekend, how is the BG Visor mask treating you Andrew?

Excellent, actually. I really like it. The only drawback is it's a bit hotter inside, I guess due to the decreased air circulation, but you'd get that problem with any lexan mask. No fogging whatsoever and I could see fine, no distortion or glare. I fenced much better too, not sure if that was due to the mask or not but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt.

Oh, also Bobby compared his Gajordoni (sp?) mask to mine and it turns out the BG's lexan is actually bigger, at least in the height dimension.

Originally Posted by DHCJr

I got a reply back from Dan and this was his reply, "Until it is on the list, it aint approved. Now the ball is in Blue Gauntlet's court. They had better get Eduardo to put it on the list ASAP or it will have to be rejected in any competition where it is presented."

Do lexan masks have to be FIE in order to pass control? I mean, if the lexan is within date and the mesh passes a punch test, conductivity is good, can it still be failed?

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by AndrewH

Do lexan masks have to be FIE in order to pass control? I mean, if the lexan is within date and the mesh passes a punch test, conductivity is good, can it still be failed?

Depends on what competition you are talking about. If you are talking a FIE competition, then no it would not pass. If you are talking about the USFA or collegiate, then I would guess, it wouldn't fail. Since the USFA does not require FIE, then I don't think even the date would be a problem. As I said at LBI last year I passed two masks with either no visible or out-of-date visor. No 'Official' word has gone out, so I wouldn't worry if you want to keep it.

[Squall_Leonhart]

On a counter note, if one were not a horrible fencer, one would realize that the frame in your peripheral vision isn't important if you know where to make your parries.

But, a lexan window does help with target....and if you can get the biggest possible window, why wouldn't you?

Which vendors don't have the anti-fog treatment on their visors?

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by Squall_Leonhart

Which vendors don't have the anti-fog treatment on their visors?

If you are talking about FIE, then the answer is All. It is one of the requirements to be certified.

[bigdawg2121]

Originally Posted by Squall_Leonhart

On a counter note, if one were not a horrible fencer, one would realize that the frame in your peripheral vision isn't important if you know where to make your parries.

But, a lexan window does help with target....and if you can get the biggest possible window, why wouldn't you?

Which vendors don't have the anti-fog treatment on their visors?

Well, then I'm gonna go ahead and accept my place as a horrible fencer b/c I for one am NOT a fan of blind spots. It's nice to be able to make count on your trained reactions but sometimes you just plain need to see what you're doing. To provide one simple example, what if I'm fencing Keeth Smart? His attacks don't generally arrive at entirely conventional angles so assuming a standard parry would be effective as I usually execute it would be silly.