Newbs Perspective of Columbus NAC

[Toedwy]

Greetings,

This is not at all meant to be a flame-war. I request a mature discussion as a result of this post to help me understand what I am missing.

A bit of my background: I am a beginner Fencer; I am enrolled in a beginner's class with my 14 y/o son in Columbus and just recently started learning about fencing at a competition level. So in other words I have no fencing experience to draw my thinking but just observations. I am 35 y/o male and competitively trained 15 years for Triathlons. I feel I have a good sense of generic athletic training and experience at a competitive and team level.

I arrived at the Convention Center with my Son in Columbus to check out the NAC fencing. I was shocked when I saw many peculiar behaviors. I was watching Foil, Epee, Saber of many age groups. Mostly, <30 and many High School age.

First, during a "Bout" the fencers seemed to be VERY VERY focused on just achieving one point. Meaning, I witnessed many fencers turning their heads to check the judge or score board before the judge even stopped the engagement. In other words I felt they were focused on getting the point instead of just fencing. A symbolism of what I am trying to express can be similar to a golfer who picks his head up before he hits the ball. Yes, I realize this must be a bad habit... But, I was surprised at this level you would find this behavior.

Second, I noticed a "Cheering" behavior when receiving a single point. This cheering seemed very excessive to me, to the point of unsportsman like. (i.e. Screaming in a victorious rage as if they just conquered William Wallace himself) This behavior was very difficult for me to understand. In the back of my mind I felt this behavior is a waste of energy and a good way to lose ones focus. I thought to myself, "Geez, stay focused man, you have 14 more points to achieve before you actually "Win" the bout, one point does not mean anything in the big picture, it is just a means to the end, but not the end itself."

I even felt the simple arm gesture of "YES" while they clutched the fist was unsportsman like.

The ironic situation would happen when both fencers felt as if they scored a point, and both screamed their war cries of victory but then find out one hit was off target. I felt embarrassed for him!

Lastly, I witnessed throwing of weapons and head protection on the ground after a loss was just utterly shocking. I was speechless.

Now, I realize I may have hidden expectations but I feel a common sportsman like competition behavior spans across all sports from Fencing to Ironmans to Golf. I was very disappointed from what I witnessed. I felt like asking who are these fencer’s coaches, mentors, peers, and sadly their parents that are allowing this to occur! (If they were in a High School age)

Is this going to stop me from Fencing? Hell no, I will gladly uphold my expectations of respect towards the Fencing sport, the Fencing Traditions, and as an Athlete who would rather die than dishonor oneself over a match. I realize that unsportsman like conduct occurs in every sport, this just seemed over-the-top, excessive and sadly an accepted behavior in fencing.

Please, help me understand the nature of this. Thank you for your mature responses. This is not meant to offend anyone, but help me understand this behavior of fencing.

Thank you.

Matt

[oiuyt]

Is this going to stop me from Fencing? Hell no, I will gladly uphold my expectations of respect towards the Fencing sport, the Fencing Traditions, and as an Athlete who would rather die than dishonor oneself over a match. I realize that unsportsman like conduct occurs in every sport, this just seemed over-the-top, excessive and sadly an accepted behavior in fencing.

I think this paragraph most neatly sums up where the problem lies.

Does fencing have unsportsmanlike conduct (as happens in every sport)? Yes. The examples you gave of mask throwing fall into that category, and we have sanctions in place that are designed to deal with such behavior.

Most of the rest of what you describe isn't unsportsmanlike. It's an accepted part of this -- and most other -- sports. The safety who sacks the QB after a blitz up the middle is probably celebrating the play. The pitcher who just struck out the batter to end the inning is likely to be giving a yell and fist pump on his way off the mound. The tennis player who wins a point after a nice rally -- depsite needing 3 more points for the game and 50-70 more points for the match. Celebration of a nice action/play/point is hardly unique to fencing. Nor is it generally considered unsportsmanlike in fencing or any of these other sports.

And just as different athletes in those sports have different demeanors, different fencers do as well. There are some fencers that will shout with every light. Other that never vocalize or otherwise show signs of celebration. And pretty much every point on the spectrum between those.

This is unlike to change any time soon. And it's not in contravention of the rules of the sport.

-B

[Xenoflame]

First, during a "Bout" the fencers seemed to be VERY VERY focused on just achieving one point.

Funny that you should bring this up since this is the best way to approach a fencing bout -- one point at a time.

Some of the other things you brought up might be bad form, but most of it is excusable in an anxiety-ridden tournament atmosphere.

[eac]

One other thing to note is that this NAC is the absolute height of competitive pressure and ambition for American fencers anywhere outside a strong World Cup. Most of the fencers involved in the NAC are purely competitive fencers, not recreational ones. They care a *lot* about winning. They (we) couldn't care less about honor, death before dishonor, all that crap. For the fencers here, that isn't what it's about. It's about beating the guy in front of you, beating the guy ahead of you on the points list, beating the third guy on the points list out for the third spot on the World Championship team, etc.
For a pair of beginning fencers, that's going to seem a little weird, particularly for those to whom fencing has been presented as an ancient tradition, honorable activity, blah blah blah. Competitive fencing at an NAC is not really related to that. 99% of fencers there will be honorable, respectful, etc to the extent that they won't try to cheat, and they usually won't try to beat you anywhere but on the strip, but that's it.
I've tried both kinds. I was originally brought up in a club that emphasized classicism, honor, silence, ancient art, etc etc., and liked it for a while. The problem I see with that kind of fencing is that no one works hard enough at it to get really good at it, and it's when you start to get really good that it becomes the most fun. The really rewarding part of fencing for me is when you suddenly start to see faster, and time seems to slow down, and you can hit that guy with a straight thrust because you know exactly what he's going to do. That happens much more in competitive fencing than in recreational fencing, because people try a lot harder.
(Also, I have a chip on my shoulder, and I want to win. )

So yes, what we do is a little weird, particularly the yelling. But give it a chance, and hopefully stay around to watch the round of 32 and higher to see some really dazzling bouts. (If you're men's foil, like I think you are, that will be on Monday around noon.)

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Greetings,

This is not at all meant to be a flame-war. I request a mature discussion as a result of this post to help me understand what I am missing.

A bit of my background: I am a beginner Fencer; I am enrolled in a beginner's class with my 14 y/o son in Columbus and just recently started learning about fencing at a competition level. So in other words I have no fencing experience to draw my thinking but just observations. I am 35 y/o male and competitively trained 15 years for Triathlons. I feel I have a good sense of generic athletic training and experience at a competitive and team level.

I arrived at the Convention Center with my Son in Columbus to check out the NAC fencing. I was shocked when I saw many peculiar behaviors. I was watching Foil, Epee, Saber of many age groups. Mostly, <30 and many High School age.

First, during a "Bout" the fencers seemed to be VERY VERY focused on just achieving one point. Meaning, I witnessed many fencers turning their heads to check the judge or score board before the judge even stopped the engagement. In other words I felt they were focused on getting the point instead of just fencing. A symbolism of what I am trying to express can be similar to a golfer who picks his head up before he hits the ball. Yes, I realize this must be a bad habit... But, I was surprised at this level you would find this behavior.

Second, I noticed a "Cheering" behavior when receiving a single point. This cheering seemed very excessive to me, to the point of unsportsman like. (i.e. Screaming in a victorious rage as if they just conquered William Wallace himself) This behavior was very difficult for me to understand. In the back of my mind I felt this behavior is a waste of energy and a good way to lose ones focus. I thought to myself, "Geez, stay focused man, you have 14 more points to achieve before you actually "Win" the bout, one point does not mean anything in the big picture, it is just a means to the end, but not the end itself."

I even felt the simple arm gesture of "YES" while they clutched the fist was unsportsman like.

The ironic situation would happen when both fencers felt as if they scored a point, and both screamed their war cries of victory but then find out one hit was off target. I felt embarrassed for him!

Lastly, I witnessed throwing of weapons and head protection on the ground after a loss was just utterly shocking. I was speechless.

Now, I realize I may have hidden expectations but I feel a common sportsman like competition behavior spans across all sports from Fencing to Ironmans to Golf. I was very disappointed from what I witnessed. I felt like asking who are these fencer’s coaches, mentors, peers, and sadly their parents that are allowing this to occur! (If they were in a High School age)

Is this going to stop me from Fencing? Hell no, I will gladly uphold my expectations of respect towards the Fencing sport, the Fencing Traditions, and as an Athlete who would rather die than dishonor oneself over a match. I realize that unsportsman like conduct occurs in every sport, this just seemed over-the-top, excessive and sadly an accepted behavior in fencing.

Please, help me understand the nature of this. Thank you for your mature responses. This is not meant to offend anyone, but help me understand this behavior of fencing.

Thank you.

Matt

Come talk to us when you suffer every day for fencing.

You have to kill yourself a little to understand why we do what we do.

[lurkerdad]

First, during a "Bout" the fencers seemed to be VERY VERY focused on just achieving one point. Meaning, I witnessed many fencers turning their heads to check the judge or score board before the judge even stopped the engagement. In other words I felt they were focused on getting the point instead of just fencing. A symbolism of what I am trying to express can be similar to a golfer who picks his head up before he hits the ball. Yes, I realize this must be a bad habit... But, I was surprised at this level you would find this behavior.

Matt

Turning your head too soon to look at the lights is actually a very bad habit that can cost you a point. I'm still a newbie too compared to most people here, but I know that much. One should always wait for the director's "Halt" before you turn your head to look at the scoring machine.

That said, I think a lot of young fencers develop this bad habit when they start entering competitions, and it is their coach's job to remind them to stop doing it. So, what you saw shouldn't be happening, but you know, some kids just can't help it and shedding this habit is just part of the learning process for them.

[eac]

It is a bad habit. I should note, however, that Sanzo got hit doing it in the team final in CIP 06 (as recorded by FP). So it's a bad habit that extends all the way to the then-reigning World Champion.

[HDG]

Toedwy,

You will find that comportment is a recurring theme of discussion here. I appreciate that you don't want to start some ugly flamewar, but please appreciate too how it rankles when someone who is new to the sport comes in and criticizes how fencing as it is actually practiced falls short of their preconceived (and perhaps romanticized?) notions of how fencing should be.

Do we all scream? No, after "ready" I for one will only let out a peep when it is a groan of self-disgust. Others find it cathartic. Still others believe (rightly or wrongly) that it will influence the way a ref makes a call. It is largely a matter of taste, although I'll grant you that third one is a sportspersonship issue.

Being "focused on getting the point instead of just fencing.": well, unless your ONLY ONLY ONLY doing it for fun (and you're not going to drop hundreds of $$ in NAC entry fees + travel + hotel for sh*ts and giggles), you're concerned with winning, and you win one point at a time. And you get wrapped up -- passionately -- in every point. Each and every point has the potential to be the one that ends your day or the one that allows you to move on to the next round.

Looking at the machine, however, just dumb.

Is this going to stop me from Fencing? Hell no, I will gladly uphold my expectations of respect towards the Fencing sport, the Fencing Traditions, and as an Athlete who would rather die than dishonor oneself over a match. I realize that unsportsman like conduct occurs in every sport, this just seemed over-the-top, excessive and sadly an accepted behavior in fencing.

Dishonoring oneself doesn't necessarily take the form of fist-pumping or yelling incomprehensibly; we don't swear on the strip or taunt the other fencer, and I'd say that sets us above a great many modern sports. Equipment throwing is penalized; if it wasn't in the incidents you witnessed, that was an anomaly.

I'm glad that you will stay with the sport even after being left with a negative impression of seeing it actually competed, but in the end bear in mind that this is a modern sport, and that the romantic nonsense about us being the spiritual descendants of knight, musketeers, duelists, etc. is just that.

[Inquartata]

Come talk to us when you suffer every day for fencing.

You have to kill yourself a little to understand why we do what we do.

Oh, brother...

I'll say it again: If the FIE made screaming a cardable offense you would stop doing it PDQ. You don't scream because you are more committed to fencing than anyone else, you do it because it's habit and/or practice. As HDG said, it's just an idiosyncratic thing, not a mark of dedication or The Passion of the Piste.

[eac]

Inq: I believe yelling wasn't the main thing he was talking about. I think it was more the general competitive ("unsportsmanlike") atmosphere, which is also the main thing Toedwy was complaining about.

What does PDQ mean?

[foildad]

Inq: I believe yelling wasn't the main thing he was talking about. I think it was more the general competitive ("unsportsmanlike") atmosphere, which is also the main thing Toedwy was complaining about.

What does PDQ mean?

pretty damn quick

[Inquartata]

It stands for 'Pretty Damned Quick'.

My commentary could apply to the rest of the behavior as well. There are a lot of competitive fencers who don't "behave badly", as I tend to think of it. So the idea that it's a natural outgrowth of fencing 'spirit' or angst is unconvincing to me on the evidence. ( It may be so in the cases of individuals, but DFP seemed to be extrapolating his experience onto the world of fencing as a whole. )

A lot of these threads begin with questions from new fencers. At first they are disturbed by the mentioned behaviors. Eventually they submerge into ( are subverted by? ) the prevailing culture and if they do not adopt the practices themselves at least become more accepting of them. Maybe the FIE should investigate this phenomenon---do these behaviors disconcert spectators as well? The FIE is much concerned about spectator appeal, after all---so if screaming and losing tantrums are not appealing to spectators, then...?

[eac]

Losing tantrums seem fairly uncommon in my experience. I can't even remember any significant ones. I have seen losing fencers crying, but quietly. Also, none of the world cup video I've seen has involved a losing tantrum, although it has involved a lot of (sometimes theatrical) victorious yelling (some of which seemed fairly entertaining; cf. Cassara in the CIP 06 team MF match from fencingpictures).
I would agree that losing tantrums would be a problem, if they existed frequently, but I haven't noticed any.

I also agree, incidentally, that yelling is not a natural outgrowth of competitive spirit or angst. I wasn't always in favor of yelling, but I decided to start about a year and a half ago, mostly to foster hard fighting on my part, and occasionally to influence influencable refs. (If a ref is occasionally influenced by yelling, the LAST thing you want is to be silent while your opponent sounds like he has his leg in a bear trap. I've also never seen a ref who was influenced negatively by yelling, and I don't think I will, since even if Inq decides to ref, he'll only ref sabre.)

[Toedwy]

Thank you kindly for the information.

And, to reinforce... I do not have the motivation to cause a flame war or even "Complain" as some above have mentioned. I am simply engaging the experience of those here to inform me of the "culture" of Fencing and this behavior I find initially odd. Or as I stated appears to me as "Unsportsman".

Sure, I maybe new to fencing; however, I have been professionally trained with endurance sports, and trained competitively for a very long time. I have felt the pressure of years of training, the time commitment, mental, physical, the cost the family has to endure when I accept the challenge of a competition. We all have to agree this is not just common in Fencing, but any competitive sport.

I have felt the demoralization from losses due to such a commitment. From my training experiences (which I am not saying is right or wrong) is where I find an interesting difference between how athletes of Fencing handle emotional and physical stress versus other sports.

Do I frown upon those that throw their weapons down? Do I frown upon those that scream after a single point?

Yes and No. I initially frown and was speechless, but at the same time I realize I am new and ignorant to the sport and remaining open-minded about it. Thus, it is why I am posting here my thoughts and want to hear the knowledge of others.

Different strokes or pokes for different folks (pun intended). I will gladly salute then shake the hand of any opponent if they are a screamer and/or a weapon thrower or not. I am just trying to understand the reasoning for the behavior

Thanks again for your insight and information.

Matt

[Thorin]

Sure, I maybe new to fencing; however, I have been professionally trained, and trained competitively for a very long time.

The difference you're seeing is that of a combative sport vs. one where your opponents' presence isn't a factor on your own performance.

Look at any other physical, fighting sport and you'll see all the same behavior as in fencing. It's not new or unsportsmanlike, it's all part of a psychological game to *keep* themselves focused an intense enough, and not be intimidated by thier opponent, because intimidation and pressure are integral parts of the game we play.

[Mo]

I like screaming, it makes me smile.
Throwing stuff, screaming in a rude way, ie AT your opponent, in their face, or using your weapon to hurt people as a "legal" way to score a point are all C R A P.
Screaming is a right of passage, Inq hasn't gone through that right.
I personally am gonna stalk him and wait till he screams, which he will, get it on video and post it on U tube.

The Momster

[samedii]

At the behest of a friend I attended this event this past Saturday as well. This was my first ever real exposure to the sport and like the orginal poster I, too, was surprised at what I regarded as unecessary vocalizations and cheering. After spending many years studying jujutsu I naturally associate such sounds with the martial arts but I never expected the convention center floor that day to sound like a dojo. I did, indeed, walk into the event with high expectations and I most certainly had a romantic notion of what fencing was supposed to be.


"As I was saying, he is a romantic creature: after this affair he tossed his sword into the sea, though I know the value he had for it. Then again he loves to make war - no man more eager in the article of battle; but afterwards it is as though he did not feel that war consisted of killing your opponents. There is a contradiction here."

-Patrick O' Brian


It is this contradiction and the questions that naturally arise from it that first drew me to study the eastern martial arts and which eventually drew my interest towards the sport of fencing. I am truly sorry to see that it is held in such low regard by the fencing community at large. This is assuming, of course, that the posters here are representative of the greater part of the fencing community.
The ki-ai or 'spirit shout' has a definite role in the eastern martial arts so one would naturally expect to hear a great deal of this in a karate dojo. Before Saturday I would have though such things as out of place at a fencing tournament as at a chess tournament. (I hold chess in a very high regard so no slight is, in any way, intended by my comparing fencing to chess.) From what I have read in this thread such vocalizations don't really serve a definite role in fencing aside from attempts to influence judges/referees. Is it the good fencing judges who are influenced by shouting or is it the bad judges? Is a good fencer one who can best his opponent with skill and style or is the combination of shouting at the referees and swordplay that which separates the masters from the mechanics? In either case I find the idea odious that one can win even a single point in fencing merely for the correct timing of a shout rather than for years of skill, passion, and effort.
I find this all terribly saddening as it seems that fencing is not for me.

-Sam

[jeff]

I personally am gonna stalk him and wait till he screams, which he will, get it on video and post it on U tube. The Momster

... and then sell it on "Sabre Fencers Gone Wild", available in DVD and VHS.... I think it more likely that Inq will scream due to board-related frustration than on-piste circumstances, but if he ever does blow his top it will be excellent cinema.


oiuyt nailed it in his respone to the opening post. Not everybody likes it, but this is part of fencing, and is not necessarily unsportsmanlike behavior. Some vocalize or act out their emotional state, some don't. It's been this way for many years, even in the Golden Age. Heck, they kiai in karate, don't they?

Toedwy, just keep an open mind and get used to fencing's behavioral norms, and try not to judge what is new to you. Every activity has its own set of behaviors.

[Peach]

I am always fascinated by the moral tone such comments often take, as if a shout or a scream by definition is immoral. For those who complain about it, there seems to be such a condemnatory tone that they could be talking about some other issue that takes on that connotation--drinking, before Prohibition; cigarette smoking, these days; being overweight, to my mother Perhaps it is simply the startling nature of noise to people used to silence. I dunno. My salle is one heck of a noisy place during practice, with only a tiny and occasional part of the noise coming from people shouting during bouts.

I do shout from time to time when I fence. Usually it is because of the intensity of the action--and often from euphoric surprise that I have managed to think and execute something correctly that fast. There are times when my voice has influenced a referee, but I didn't do it for that reason. And I definitely don't make any noise when the touch is easy or my opponent is unskilled, because it doesn't provoke such a rush of unbelieving joy.

It amuses me to fence people who shout when they lose a touch.

[HDG]

I find this all terribly saddening as it seems that fencing is not for me.

-Sam

Give the sport a try before condemning it based only upon what you have seen of its practitioners.