[Sabre] Advance Lunge from "Fence"

[Xenoflame]

Hello.

I am a sabre fencer trying to make sense of everything that I've been taught so far. My coach is not available right now, so I turn to you for advice and discussion.

Upon watching a video of myself during a tournament, I have realized that I almost never attack from the guard line. This is mostly because
1) I am afraid of getting parried
2) I don't see any point in drawing a simultaneous and running the risk of the ref calling a point against me

When do you know that you should attack from the simultaneous? And, assuming you are just doing an advance-lunge, when do you decide whether to disengage or finish?

Thanks.

[erooMynohtnA]

1. Why does attacking from the start line make being parried more likely?
2. The director can also call the touch against your opponent.

You shouldn't think of it as attacking simultaneously with your opponent. You should just attack to get the touch, and if it happens to be simultaneous, that's too bad. You can attack (and happen to be simultaneous) a few times in a row then throw in a parry, counterattack, stop hit, or whatever, and your opponent won't expect it.

You decide to finish your attack when you can hit your opponent. You disengage if he has closed the line you're attacking.

[edew]

If it's the first time you meet your opponent and neither of you know how strong the other is, there's a good chance that the first action will be simultaneous advance-lunge attacks. You need to establish that you can attack, that you can attack properly so that the referee isn't going to call you for pulling your arm back and such.

Then, the next action may include some stepping back or more waiting.

I'd suggest you start your initial step slowly. If your opponent makes an attack, you can either follow through with your attack (drawing a simultaneous action) or step back to make your opponent miss.

I don't recommend parrying while going forward (and if your opponent does it, it's a very risky gamble). One should always try to parry while going backwards, although there are situations when one would parry while advancing (second-intention actions, for example).

If all you do from the on guard line is advance-lunge, your opponent will do the step-back and nail you with a distance-parry riposte.

[Phaeton]

Parrying going forward is a great action if you have the distance. You need to make the time so that you can recognize the attack and respond, so that prepratory step should be slower so that you have more distance if you are going to parry riposte.

The tempo of the decision of an action is really hard to describe and/or visualize. From simultaneous if you are planning to do step lunge...work on a decisional excercise with your coach.

You need to have confidence in your attack. Simultaneous and attack actions are used to set up points. If you parry riposte from enguard everytime, soon someone is going to counter it. Maybe you should be working on feignts.

There are two tricks to make this easier. Accelerate your lunge to give yourself time to disengage and make your step slower so that you can decide whether to take distance, finish, counter attack, or parry riposte going forward (which is a perfectly valid action). It all depends where you are in the step when an attack does or doesn't arrive.

[fencerbill]

[quote=edew;517443]
I don't recommend parrying while going forward (and if your opponent does it, it's a very risky gamble). One should always try to parry while going backwards, although there are situations when one would parry while advancing (second-intention actions, for example).
QUOTE]

But if you can get in a head parry riposte on the first "fence", it is devastating to your opponent.

Originally Posted by edew

I'd suggest you start your initial step slowly. If your opponent makes an attack, you can either follow through with your attack (drawing a simultaneous action) or step back to make your opponent miss.

You have to be careful with the referee. Some may penalize you for the slow first step if your opponent is making an immediate accellerating attack.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

On the theme of being careful about referees---

The word "disengage" worries me. Making something that many pointy-weapons people consider a totally valid disengage looks a lot like a search a lot of the time in sabre. A disengage that goes UP in sabre is sometimes called a cut-over, and can be less risky. But that's if they're looking for your blade.

If they're looking to parry, you wait for them to pick somewhere (or better, MAKE them pick somewhere) and hit somewhere else. That sounds to me like a feint, not a disengage.....................

[rcmatthews]

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

On the theme of being careful about referees---

The word "disengage" worries me. Making something that many pointy-weapons people consider a totally valid disengage looks a lot like a search a lot of the time in sabre. A disengage that goes UP in sabre is sometimes called a cut-over, and can be less risky. But that's if they're looking for your blade.

If they're looking to parry, you wait for them to pick somewhere (or better, MAKE them pick somewhere) and hit somewhere else. That sounds to me like a feint, not a disengage.....................

And indeed, thats why it can be so useful, given the right situation.

OP, simultaneous attacks are not throw away touches. Also, it is absolutely critical for you to have confidence that your attack will land, otherwise your opponent can play all sorts of games with you.

[Xenoflame]

Thanks for all your help. Strange as it sounds, I guess I just needed to hear some of that again. After some reviewing, it seems that I actually very rarely get parried on my initial attack. I think the solution here is to practice feints and my preparations until I can attack with full confidence.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by Xenoflame

Thanks for all your help. Strange as it sounds, I guess I just needed to hear some of that again. After some reviewing, it seems that I actually very rarely get parried on my initial attack. I think the solution here is to practice feints and my preparations until I can attack with full confidence.

You don't want to attack with full confidence, because you need to be able to do SOMETHING if you don't succeed.

You want to attack knowing that you have a damn good shot at hitting on this attack, and if something goes wrong..... well, you have a variety of ways to get right of way back, and then you can try it again.

[oso97]

Originally Posted by Xenoflame

Upon watching a video of myself during a tournament, I have realized that I almost never attack from the guard line. This is mostly because
1) I am afraid of getting parried
2) I don't see any point in drawing a simultaneous and running the risk of the ref calling a point against me

Actions from the on-gaurd line is one of the critical aspects of the modern sabre game. Afterall, during the course of the bout we spend more time at the on-gaurd line in sabre than we do anywhere else - by a very large factor! Having a strong repetoir of actions that one can perform off the on-gaurd line is very important. These include, but are not limited to:

1) a straight attack
2) an indirect attack
3) a false attack
4) a preparation that invites an attack to be parried

These are just the beginning, of course, but learning to execute them will lead you down many other avenues.

I suggest you start with focusing on small basic footwork actions and practice doing them at at least three different speeds - slow, normal, and fast. Then also trying doing them in three different modalities - hard, neutral, and soft (hard will cause your opponent to open the distance, neutral will cause him to keep the distance the same, and soft will cause him to close the distance).

Once you have begun to develop control of your feet and play with distance, you'll start to see openings for offensive and defensive actions.

[Inquartata]

The simultaneous attack can also be used deliberately, to set up a pattern which the opponent wll expect to be repeated---and which you can then break.

One does of course have to beware of the really competent and perceptive referee, who will see a ROW in what other refs would call simultaneous.

[Xenoflame]

Originally Posted by oso97

I suggest you start with focusing on small basic footwork actions and practice doing them at at least three different speeds - slow, normal, and fast. Then also trying doing them in three different modalities - hard, neutral, and soft (hard will cause your opponent to open the distance, neutral will cause him to keep the distance the same, and soft will cause him to close the distance).

Once you have begun to develop control of your feet and play with distance, you'll start to see openings for offensive and defensive actions.

Can you elaborate on the modalities? What does it mean to perform a footwork action hard?

[oso97]

Originally Posted by Xenoflame

Can you elaborate on the modalities? What does it mean to perform a footwork action hard?

"Hard," "Neutral," and "Soft" are just convienent one-word labels.

Do the action in such a way that it causes the opponent to open the distance (hard).

Do the action in such a way that it causes the opponent to keep the distance the same (neutral).

Do the action is such a way that it causes the opponent to close the distance (soft).

For example - a passive advance might invite the opponent to attack a preparation (close the distance). If the passive advance is done purposefully, a parry-riposte can be set up (counter-time).

An aggressive advance might cause the opponent to pull back. In which case one could then move into "push-push" (what some call "stutter steps" or "varied tempo advances" - basically, moving forward without blindly charging).

Clearer?

[Xenoflame]

Originally Posted by oso97

Clearer?

Much, thank you.