Salle Floors

[jjefferies]

We've been searching for a new salle location. May have found one but it has concrete floors and we'll have to build out a new floor suitable for fencing. I would like to solicit any comments on building techniques, things to do and things to look out for.

At this point we're considering using 3/4 inch plywood on 3x4 's with most of the work being done by club members. The space is roughly 33x66 feet. Current thinking is that only the fencing floor needs to be built out i.e. approximtely 56 feet long (14 meeters (46 feet ) plus 1.5 meters (5 feet) of runoff on each end). As to width, allowing 1.5 meters (5 feet) for width of strips there would be 6 strips for practice and 4 for tournament play. Looking around at various clubs I'm becoming aware of some of the compromises that have been mades. Appreciate any comment on that as well.

thanks

[DHCJr]

Yes, you will safe on material at the expense of making it more complicated, more labor intensive to build and generally less safe.

If you build each strip, you must cut every piece of plywood instead of using mostly full sizes to cover an entire floor.

You must brace every piste, instead of using the 4 walls to help brace.

You will have an uneven floor with each piste raised above the general concrete floor.

If you have tournaments, I don't think the referees will appreciate being on concrete.

Suppose you wanted to rent out the site for a night for a party (even if only in house) having an even floor would be a lot better.

[CvilleFencer]

A couple of good option to building out a floor from scratch are sport court flooring. It is good stuff with lots of spring to it. If you have ever been to a Richmond NAC or to the VA Hangover Classic, that is what is used on the floors there. It is not cheap, but it comparable to building out a floor and it is much easier to take with you or repair if you go to a new space.

Another option are custom length "strips" of the material that is used on assembly lines, in prep kitchens (not the stuff with the holes in it) and in a lot of grocery stores. This is a springy, strain relieving material made out of rubber or other similiar products and while is is most often encountered in "mat" size it can be ordered in about any shape you can imagine. It is heavy to ship, usually coming in by truck so shop around to find the best price and the type that may work for you.

Another option depending on your budget is to go with either an Artos or Absolute "rubber lame" style strip which gives you a grounded fencing surface and some shock absorption or go with a segmented strip like they use at NACs which does the same to a certain extent. With either one you can put some carpet padding underneath them to give a good fencing surface even over concrete. And best of all any of the options can go with you. You also may be able to rent out grounded pistes to your division or local colleges for their events and eventually recoup some of the overhead.

[DenverFencing]

Our floor is created similar to what you describe but we took the extra step of adding these poly cubes that I got from www.stagestep.com, a dance floor company. It makes it very cushioned and it has lasted 3 year now.

Some other suggestion I have heard are take the best carpet pad you can get and put tongue and groove ply-wood on top.

[jjefferies]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

Yes, you will safe on material at the expense of making it more complicated, more labor intensive to build and generally less safe.

If you build each strip, you must cut every piece of plywood instead of using mostly full sizes to cover an entire floor.

You must brace every piste, instead of using the 4 walls to help brace.

You will have an uneven floor with each piste raised above the general concrete floor.

If you have tournaments, I don't think the referees will appreciate being on concrete.

Suppose you wanted to rent out the site for a night for a party (even if only in house) having an even floor would be a lot better.

Sorry but I'm not sure that your post makes sense or that you understood the original post. An entire area of at least 33'x56' will be floored. The remaining area will be floored differently but it won't be used for fencing.

[restlesscheese]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

A couple of good option to building out a floor from scratch are sport court flooring. It is good stuff with lots of spring to it. If you have ever been to a Richmond NAC or to the VA Hangover Classic, that is what is used on the floors there. It is not cheap, but it comparable to building out a floor and it is much easier to take with you or repair if you go to a new space.

Dear Lord, that stuff is heavenly! I fenced on it at Hangover over the weekend, and it is a great improvement over a normal gym floor, not to mention concrete. Two thumbs up on that stuff!

Also, just some speculation on my behalf, if someone should spill water or a particularly sweaty fencer should happen to lay on the floor, the plywood might warp. And don't get me started about the splinters!

[reawl]

Richmond Fencing Club did a really nice build out of a wooden floor about the size you've mentioned. There's lots of pictures and a fair amount of detail on what they used. You can also get a feel for the crew you might want to enlist.

From my own research, the sport court stuff is really the way to go for durability, ease of cleaning, etc. Might be slightly less favorable than wood in the initial cost, but probably would last longer.

As another cheap alternative, I love the high traffic (short pile) carpet we have in our current facility. The carpet pad provides a fair amount of cushion. The carpet is never slippery. And clean up is usually just vacuum. I painted on lines so I don't have to fiddle with tape coming up all the time. It also serves to absorb sound so it is easier to teach without yelling.

What I really want: They make carpet for critical areas that DISSIPATES static electricity. If they could make a version of this that CONDUCTS electricity (as in back to a scoring box), then it would be perfect. Anyone with connections to 3M or some other hi-tech carpet maker please pull some strings for me!!!

EDIT: This is the carpet I mentioned

[tlucente]

Originally Posted by reawl

Richmond Fencing Club did a really nice build out of a wooden floor about the size you've mentioned. There's lots of pictures and a fair amount of detail on what they used. You can also get a feel for the crew you might want to enlist.

Thanks for the compliment, we all worked very hard on that floor. Our Head Coach, Jeff Snider, found these rubber that are regularly used under professionally built gym floors, to give the floor some spring. We were also lucky enough to have a member who's husband is a construction foreman. Thanks again Chuck!!

The complete floor (ours was roughly 35' X 112') including lumber, fasteners, stain, and sealant cost about $6000. Lumber alone was $3600, and the pads were another $2000...stain and sealant fill out the rest of the cost, along with incidentals like staple guns, screwdriver bits, and cleanup materials. We've been on that floor for almost 16 months now, and I'm amazed how well it has held up.

It took us about, I'm guessing, 300+ man hours to complete.

[CvilleFencer]

Two things that really helped with the RFC floor was that what was used was not the normal 3/8 inch plywood but the thicker half inch that was treated and I think that is meant for outdoor use, such as on exterior walls and maybe roofing. A lot more expensive initially, but it has held up super well to sweat, spills and mopping.

The most important thing I learned on that build however was this. When your clubs self appointed gadget geek hands you a groovy, high tech electric triggered industrial strength staple gun that looks like a prop from a sci fi flick, make sure he explains which end the staples come out before trying to use it. Man that stung...

[LUDICROUS]

Try to avoid a hard wood gym floor with raised metal pistes (2 inches maybe..)on plywood-like boards, if you don't like noise, because it get's pretty damn loud.

[fatfencer]

Years ago I was checking into an Aikido dojo that had rented some dump of a commercial building.

What it did was fascinating and, in retrospect would make fencing VERY fun.

They built a square/rectangular riser of about 8 inches around the whole floor with 2 x4's laid flat.

Then they used a series of closed cell foam mats to cover the entire surface but only up to about 4 inches or so. Next they sprayed shredded tire all over the floor for 2 inches in depth. They placed 4 x 8 sheets of plywood down to cover the square. They covered it with a type of rubber found on college outdoor tracks and in turn covered it with one large piece of canvas that was tied down with eyelets all round the square. The sides of the square had eye screws I believe.

What the result was after a month of use, of settling in, of stretching and breaking in the canvas, etc., was a easy on the knees and VERY springy surface.


Something similar could be done with the piste in fencing, though I can't figger out a way it would make sense for the whole floor.

A variation would be to do away with the shredded tire bit or the closed cell foam bit, but not both, and get rid of the canvas as well. cover the 4x8's with rubber track surface then the cheese grater stuff and voila! soft flooring.

FF

PS: that aikido mat could make anyone look like a master MA-ist. I saw the slightly framed female '4dan' instructor 'throw' some guy and he hit the mat and BOUNCED off like a superball. It was like an expensively made trampoline!!! Sure looked cool though when I was a young, impressionable starry eyed college kid. I can imagine now fencing someone... the sheer horror of the mass that is Fatfencer hurtling toward them in a slow but, from a mass perspective, UNAVOIDABLE fleche... bosted by the trampoline-like flooring. Imagine Fat Albert (Hey, Hey, Hey!) hurtling thru spacetime at you... bwahahahahaha!

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

Sorry but I'm not sure that your post makes sense or that you understood the original post. An entire area of at least 33'x56' will be floored. The remaining area will be floored differently but it won't be used for fencing.

Sorry I was going by what you originally wrote. I still don't see it. If I am reading this right the piste will be right next to each other. How you can get 4 tournament piste from 6 piste right next to each other. I can maybe see 3, but even then the referees would be friendly.

To keep it simple, if you were going with the 3x4, I would still cover the whole floor the same way. There are also what has been suggested above.

[qatet]

FAP has the rubber padding under sport court. It's quite nice. Another benefit of sport court? We've had some flooding problems at times. With sport court you can lift up the entire floor in mere minutes, clean the sport court on both sides, clean the floor underneath, and put the whole thing back down.

If you are thinking about the rubber, due to a miscommunication during construction we actually have about 15 rolls extra. If you're at all interested in purchasing it, contact maestromasters@msn.com. We've used some of it once to create non-slippery strips for an RYC, but other than that it's brand new.

[DesertFencer]

My house is slab-built, as are most commercial buildings in my part of the country. Here's my $0.02:

First, I'd check into the plumbing to make sure there are no old copper hot water pipes running under the slab. They tend to leak and the only way to repair them is to cut a hole in your brand new floor. The new "pex" pipe is the way to go. It will protect your investment by moving the plumbing overhead or through a wall.

The sport court would be my choice, but I could see where the cost could become prohibitive to many clubs. I personally hate carpet, so I'd look into the tongue and groove oak flooring from places like Home Depot. It's not a laminate, it's actual wood. You can lay it directly over the slab with a thin foam layer between. You'll have more maintenance, but you're out about $3 per square foot if you do it yourself.

[qatet]

Ha - realised I should look at where you live. Perhaps a Californian has little use for rubber flooring that's currently in Philadelphia. But if anybody _else_ wants rubber flooring, check with FAP.

I wouldn't suggest using foam under your flooring. The reason people suspend their wood floors on thin wood risers is because the wood risers won't lose its cushioning, like foam does. Or if they do, uhhh, your fencers have some serious trouble.

[reawl]

Originally Posted by DesertFencer

I personally hate carpet...

I'm curious as to why. This is the first time I have heard someone say they dislike fencing on carpet.

[DesertFencer]

Now that you bring it up, I can't really explain it. I occasionally practice on short "commercial" type carpet in my office with non-fencing shoes. It seems it would be more stable, but I just don't get a "postitive" feel on carpet. On the scale of slick like marble tile and rough like carpet, I prefer something in the middle.

My guess is that since most of my training has been on wooden gym floors, it's just what I've become accustomed to. If my club fenced on carpet for a while, I'd probably change my mind.

There must be something to it since I'm a minority on the issue.