So Saddam is hanged ...

[Phaeton]

The reasoning behind the Korean War was that the second that Russia got a warm water port and a hold in the Pacific the US was in trouble. If the bomb had not been dropped the US would have needed Russia's support. There was a conference where agreements were signed on what Russia would claim if there would be a war with Japan and a land invasion, and there was a significant amount of things that the US would not want to be Soviet assets.

Churchill didn't like Communist Russia. He was happy watching the Germans bleed them dry. No good capitalist would...the idea of communism is scary to those that hold wealth. After all, it was the Communists that caused Italy and Germany to become fascist in the first place.

In the soon-to-be-president Eisenhower's meeting with Truman there was a discussion in which Eisenhower stated explicitly that the bomb should only be used as a deterrent to the Soviets. The scientific commitee that reviewed the decision to use the bomb, while mixed in opinion, had many members who saw this is as strong preemptive use. Even the future secretary of war (which we now call defense) had voiced opinions to those in office that it would be great at scaring Russians.

[Interrupter]

I understand the whole thing about Russia being communist and everything, but over the years they've really come a long way. They've really opened up. I like them now. We've always favored China over Russia and it really just goes back to the psychology of people who admire asians or even envy asians -the hype with the math skills etc in the 80's helped them overcome their case with communisim. It goes deeper than that, but we can talk more about man's psychology later. But the Russians never turned their backs on that aspect.

[Phaeton]

Watch in the next few years as Russia will go from being a kleptocracy run by the mafia into a dictatorship run by none other than Putin himself. When you can kick religious minorities out of Moscow, and your country is considered the 3rd most dangeorus to be a journalist things aren't on the up and up. Having alcoholism rates that are higher than the altitude of the JO venue doesn't help either.

The reason why people admire the Chinese is that the Chinese have actually had some economic growth and improvement. Not just some, but amazing growth and improvement. China hasn't stopped growing population wise, and has the largest in the world which is more than I can say about Russia which has had an estimated drop of about 3 million people since 2002.

China's GDP has increased by atleast 9% each year over the last 25 years and has the 4th largest world economy. China also is the world's 3rd largest trading power. Not only is China economicaly strong, but that money is actively going into infrastructure.

China has the second highest amount of internet users in the world and the second highest amount of freeway space. There are also projects for massive train systems, and unlike any emerging power (India or Russia) are still creating massive amounts of infrastructure at a high rate. Not to mention the fact that by the year 2012 (if the world doesn't end according to the Mayans) the Chinese will have surpassed the US in the number of individuals with engineering degrees.

China supposidly has literacy rates around 90%.

China has done an amazing job at coming back, Russia on the other hand has not. Things in Russia are improving, and it's quite true that Russians have enjoyed slightly more freedom than their Chinese counterparts (although that's slowly changing). That's not to say that China doesn't face some major problems, many involving enviromental detioration, HIV/AIDS, and the fact that people are just not having or are getting rid of female children. China is not communist (it arguably never was, and definately isn't after Deng Xiaoping), but is some totalitarian state-capitalist beast of a nation, but as long as the Chinese quality of life keeps on improving, and people keep on getting richer, no one is going to care about encroached freedoms.

[I avoid the word fascist, because does it mean anything after all? Il Duce came up with it but never defined it. Seems like everyone bickers about it anyway. Ah well.]

It isn't just psychological. People have good reason to applaud China. Besides, if we aren't nice to them they can mess with the $ like nothing else...

It goes deeper than that, but we can talk more about man's psychology later. But the Russians never turned their backs on that aspect.

This statement makes no sense to me. IF there's any bias aspect it is that Western Europeans don't like Russia. Never have. Russia is a big landmass with a lot natural resources and a lot of potential. That scares a lot of people. Russia may not have recovered as well as China, but they can with their vast resources and some intelligent planning, start doing well again in the near-ish future.

[Inquartata]

Watch in the next few years as Russia will go from being a kleptocracy run by the mafia into a dictatorship run by none other than Putin himself.

Maybe you should wait another year before you make that prediction, given this:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4220176.stm

[Phaeton]

Everyone Lies

If not him someone else. You can't argue Russia isn't becoming autocratic...and who knows...people can change their minds.

[TrainingDummy]

Umm... Eisenhower was, IIRC, AGAINST using the bomb. I guess I'll have to dig something up. Oh, and Interrupter, I wasn't positive who you were until you changed text colors on that post. For the love of God, will you just pick one log-in and stick with it!?

[introspective]

You're right Dummy - however - I too realize the many different guises of the logger inners and I never betray their true identity - I expect the same!!!!!
Take that.....~)--------
and That ~)-----------

I'll try, but if one more stranger walks up to me and starts "chatting" I'm on him like gravey over rice. I really love Russia. I have no idea why, I've always been fond of them and I remember when Nakita Kruschov came to America I was a small girl walking around in the living room and he was on TV at the United Nations. I remember him talking and taking off his shoe and banging it on the table and yelling at the UN. But I was about 7 or 8 at the time and I solemly nodded my head in agreement. "yeth Nakita" I lisped.
[I think it was his first name, I really loved his first name.] I think I agreed with the shoe part.

[Phaeton]

I didn't word my statement correctly. Eisenhower said that the use the bomb was anything but a neccesity and that there was capability to defeat Japan without its usage, and if it would be used, only be used as a Russian deterrent. I somehow left out the word only and turned that into a statement supporting use of the bomb.

If need be I can find the document confirming this.

[pigeonmeister]

I didn't word my statement correctly. Eisenhower said that the use the bomb was anything but a neccesity and that there was capability to defeat Japan without its usage, and if it would be used, only be used as a Russian deterrent. I somehow left out the word only and turned that into a statement supporting use of the bomb.

If need be I can find the document confirming this.

Do you mean Eisenhower's memoirs 'Mandate for Change'......?

"...in [July] 1945... Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. ...the Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent.

"During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude..."

- 'Mandate For Change' pg. 380

In a Newsweek interview, Eisenhower again recalled the meeting with Stimson:

"...the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."

- Ike on Ike, Newsweek, 11/11/63

[introspective]

well, did Hannibal need to go into Italy? It's all hindsight. People from my parents generation supported the use of the bomb because they stated that the war was not coming to a conclusion. That in spite of repeated messages to the royal family in Japan, it was ceasless. The Kamakazee was on a spiritual mission thus the infallability of it all. They were heavily entrenched into the Pacific and saw a victory in sight. If they could take the Pacific "theater" then Germany could have Euroope and Northern Africa. They already carved up their terriritories. It was a decision that was made, not lightly I don't think, but once the decision was made they carried forward with it. The choice of the name of the plane that dropped the bomb always burned my butt: the Enola Gay. First it was the name of the pilots mother. Which was too personal to put onto a warplane. And I have a cousin with that name, so that's why I remember it.