Jacket font qusetion

[Skeletorsnell]

I know the last name on the jacket is a required height, what about the country to go below the name iex... USA what would be the dimensional requirement for that..

[CvilleFencer]

It is the same. Block print, 8-10 cm in height and in dark blue/navy. Some people play around with the type face and shading a bit, but those are the actual regs as I understand them...

[KD5MDK]

For international events, identical. For other events, not required.

[brtech]

The rule says "Block Font" and it has a height rule, but not a width of letter rule

So, use a real simple sans-serif block font and change the width to fit, leaving the height 8-10 cm.

It does say blue, not black, and that doesn't change with the color of the lame if you are doing lames

Traditionally, it's last name only, but that isn't in the rule.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by brtech

The rule says "Block Font" and it has a height rule, but not a width of letter rule

So, use a real simple sans-serif block font and change the width to fit, leaving the height 8-10 cm.

It does say blue, not black, and that doesn't change with the color of the lame if you are doing lames

Traditionally, it's last name only, but that isn't in the rule.

M.25 says, in part,

"The letters
must be in dark blue, in capitals, between 8 cm and 10 cm high,
and between 1 cm and 1,5 cm wide, according to the length of the
name."

Here is another example to add to DHCjr's long list of ambiguous FIE rules.

If you take the literal meaning of "between 1 cm and 1.5 cm wide", then a four letter last name like mine would be less than about 8 cm wide, about 3 inches.

I have always interpreted what they mean to be that the width of the lines of the letters should be 1 - 1.5 cm wide. But that is not what the translation of the original French rule is. Don't know any French so can't vouch for the accuracy of the translation.

My observation of names seen at competitions is that the block font used depends on the number of letters in the name. Short names would be in what I would characterize as a "normal" font. Long names or hyphenated names would use a "condensed" block font.

In my experience working at National and World Championships, I have never seen a jacket or Lame failed because of the width of the lines in the name or the width of the letters. In contrast, the height requirement of from 8-10 cm is usually closely examined. The armorers at the 2000 Junior/Cadet World Championships in South Bend wore out several blue markers loaning them to fencers as they "stretched" the letters in their names to reach the 8 cm minimum. Some strange fonts resulted.

I don't remember many jackets with first names but it is not that rare for people to have a first name initial, particularly where there may be brothers or multiples of fencers with the same last name. Didn't the French Sabre team recently have two brothers?

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

If you take the literal meaning of "between 1 cm and 1.5 cm wide", then a four letter last name like mine would be less than about 8 cm wide, about 3 inches.

I have always interpreted what they mean to be that the width of the lines of the letters should be 1 - 1.5 cm wide. But that is not what the translation of the original French rule is. Don't know any French so can't vouch for the accuracy of the translation.

I checked the French and the English translation I'm afraid is accurate. It is as ambiguous as the translation. I did check with Dan and your interpretation agrees with SEMI. It is a new rule this year and I haven't done an international recently. I wonder if they check.

They no longer check for weight and shim in Control because (they say) it takes so long even though you still have to plug it in and push down the tip to test that it works and has less than 2 ohms resistance. So they add all these new rules that it is up to Control to judge. Even the Epee jackets must be controlled by the Armorers as you know.

[RebelFencer]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

Didn't the French Sabre team recently have two brothers?

It was their Epee team. Fabrice and Jerome Jeannette.

[gladius]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

I checked the French and the English translation I'm afraid is accurate. It is as ambiguous as the translation. I did check with Dan and your interpretation agrees with SEMI. It is a new rule this year and I haven't done an international recently. I wonder if they check.

If I may: the English translation of the original French is inaccurate.

The original French:

m.25 3 h)

Les lettres doivent être en caractères majuscules, de couleur bleu marine, de 8 à 10 cm de hauteur et 1cm à 1,5 cm d’épaisseur qui variera en fonction de la longueur du nom.



English translation:

"The letters must be in dark blue, in capitals, between 8 cm and 10 cm high,
and between 1 cm and 1,5 cm wide, according to the length of the
name."


The problem is in the translation of the word épaisseur which is wrongly written as wide or width of the letter.

épaisseur = thickness of the line the letter is drawn, not width of the letter

So the thickness of the line used to draw the letter can vary between 1 and 1.5 cm, not the width of the letter. Only in case of the letter "I" the two are the same.

Could the original French have been written better? Of course, but in French the meaning is obvious. In the inaccurate English translation above the meaning becomes confusing hence the discussion we are having.

The entire statement is somehow misleading since it talks of the [total] height of the letter (which is the same for all letters) and the width of each letter which changes between I and M or W. Hence the play with the thickness of the line drawing of the letter to make long names fit (short last names are no problem at all even if your last name is LI). Accordingly, to maintain a certain visual balance, the height of the letter can vary between 8 and 10 cm.

One more reason to use English as the official fencing language for the rules or at a minimum to request that the English translation of the French text is done accurately and correctly.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

It was their Epee team. Fabrice and Jerome Jeannet

fixed

[Cookeit]

Anyone think the name "WITTENBURG" will look too long/bad on the back of a foil lame?

(not like I would change my name or anything...)

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Cookeit

Anyone think the name "WITTENBURG" will look too long/bad on the back of a foil lame?

(not like I would change my name or anything...)

Worse one...a fencer out in SoCal....Dawn Dinwiddie-Cobb.

Sweet lady....but kinda small...had to have her name as "D-Cobb" on her lame.

Or Randy Paffenroth, formerly from CalTech...name went on his leg...and was sectioned off...."Paffen" - then "roth" underneath that...good thing he;s tall and has looong legs!

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by gladius

Could the original French have been written better? Of course, but in French the meaning is obvious. In the inaccurate English translation above the meaning becomes confusing hence the discussion we are having.

One more reason to use English as the official fencing language for the rules or at a minimum to request that the English translation of the French text is done accurately and correctly.

I would say one more reason to make sure English is never the official fencing language. If the British version of the rules was the official think of the problem with this particular rule, there would be arguments on does it mean width of the letter or the stroke. As you said the meaning is clear in French and since if there are any discrepencies between the 3 versions the French is the final word.

I agree about it should be translated correctly. I would suggest you forward your observation to Bill Oliver who is responsible for the USFA rule book and Jeff Bukantz who is a member of the Rules committee of the FIE.

[yeoldearmourer]

I was just looking at the 2006 rule book and the note put on by the USFA is the name must be in captial letters period. No mention if it block letters or not.

[notalent]

I know of 2 times where a head ref at a NAC deemed that the font was non confirming. The first time was for lettering that was to thin, hand written in black sharpie the offender is a high level ref. The second one was a font where the down stroke of letters was missing, an E was three horizontal lines, a D was just like a refersed C, also a high level ref.

[KD5MDK]

Was it the font or the size and color in your previous statement? I recognize the second case (and have seen the name in question), but am curious about the first.

[DHCJr]

I have been working very hard on getting up to speed on the T rules and I found something very interesting in the new 2006 rule book. For the USFA the rule is no longer 8 - 10 cm high. It is now 8 - 15 cm high.

Check the note on page 18.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

I have been working very hard on getting up to speed on the T rules and I found something very interesting in the new 2006 rule book. For the USFA the rule is no longer 8 - 10 cm high. It is now 8 - 15 cm high.

Check the note on page 18.

I think it is a typo. Not the first.

[fencerbill]

M.25 has 8-10 cm for name on back of jacket/Lame.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

M.25 has 8-10 cm for name on back of jacket/Lame.

Yes it does. The trouble is the notes and the Athletes handbood modifies the FIE rules for USFA competitions.

For example M.25.4 only Epee fencers are required to use full jackets that covers the whole surface. There is no restriction for Foil and Sabre. But in the Athletes handbook there is a restriction on both Epee and Foil must wear the full jacket.

Also the same note allows for the name on the breeches. These notes make life interesting.

[fencerbill]

I still think it's a typo. Why would anyone want their name 15 cm high? Mine is one of the few that would fit.