wrong cant?

[Darknova12]

ok guys -- quick opinon question for you:

I recently bought a foil from Physical Chess -- this is just a practice foil mind you...

they put a cant in the blade but i totally didnt realize until i got home that they put a righty cant in the tang when i'm a leftie! i think they're just so used to doing it that they just got it wrong: but i dont know what i should do now: i cant fence with a rightie cant when i'm a leftie, it makes the bend less than worthless it actually hinders me

any ideas if i should fix it myself with pliers or if i should bring it back?

- Thanks
Justin

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by Darknova12

ok guys -- quick opinon question for you:

I recently bought a foil from Physical Chess -- this is just a practice foil mind you...

they put a cant in the blade but i totally didnt realize until i got home that they put a righty cant in the tang when i'm a leftie! i think they're just so used to doing it that they just got it wrong: but i dont know what i should do now: i cant fence with a rightie cant when i'm a leftie, it makes the bend less than worthless it actually hinders me

any ideas if i should fix it myself with pliers or if i should bring it back?

- Thanks
Justin

You're not supposed to cant a blade twice, but if it were my foil, I'd just re-cant it. If you're not confident you can do it without breaking it, just send it back; it's their fault.

[Darknova12]

if i were to recant it, would it seriously weaken the blade? I dont really mind fixing it myself but I dont want to cause someone else injury becuase i've weakened the blade...

[Goldgar]

Originally Posted by Darknova12

they put a cant in the blade but i totally didnt realize until i got home that they put a righty cant in the tang when i'm a leftie! i think they're just so used to doing it that they just got it wrong: but i dont know what i should do now: i cant fence with a rightie cant when i'm a leftie, it makes the bend less than worthless it actually hinders me

any ideas if i should fix it myself with pliers or if i should bring it back?

How far are they from you? You can almost certainly fix it yourself, though probably not with pliers; however, if they're convenient to you, it might teach them a lesson if you make them fix their mistake. That is, if it was a mistake -- did you specifically ask them to put a left-handed set on the blade?

If you want to fix it yourself, I prefer to use a bench-mounted vise to set blades, but you can also do it using the hole in the handle of a good wrench, and there are other methods used by various people. A search should turn up some threads on the subject. You'll have to take the handle and guard off, so be careful at all times not to break the wire, or pinch it while you're applying pressure to cant the blade.

[Darknova12]

i did not ask them to put a cant into the blade at all -- i planned on doing it myself. When i picked it up i was in a rush, saw it was bent down and left with it... later (read today when i had a chance to fence) i looked down at it and thought something looked wrong: then i saw it was bent to the left instead of the right...

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by Darknova12

if i were to recant it, would it seriously weaken the blade? I dont really mind fixing it myself but I dont want to cause someone else injury becuase i've weakened the blade...

I use a pair of visegrips for everything except maraging blades.

I wouldn't worry about it breaking during fencing. I've never seen a foil break there, and if it were to break there, I don't see how you could hurt someone with it. I would worry about breaking it while canting if you've never done it before.

[Goldgar]

Originally Posted by Darknova12

if i were to recant it, would it seriously weaken the blade? I dont really mind fixing it myself but I dont want to cause someone else injury becuase i've weakened the blade...

I'm sure it would weaken it somewhat, but I think for most blades it's unlikely to make a significant difference. And the location of the weakness -- if any -- would be right there at the "shoulders" of the blade, so I don't think there's any danger to a fencing partner, even if the blade were to break there.

Bear in mind, some blades are very hard to set, and I'd guess re-setting such a blade would be increase the chance of breaking it in the process. You'll quickly discover if the blade is very hard to bend at the tang. If it is, I'd take it back and let the vendor deal with it.

[Zilverzmurfen]

Return it and have them send you a new blade.

It's not the vendors task to put a cant in a blade unless the customer specifically asks for it. I would not accept anyone else to cant my blade, how would they know which is the right angle to me?! Bad vendor!

[Inquartata]

ALL cants are wrong. Thus spake Inquartata.

But seriously, hey, how many times does the average fencing blade flex in its lifetime? Think about the bends you foilists put in your weapons when you're gluing the wires into the channels; think about how they bow every time you hit, and the extreme bends they undergo in the course of a flick or parry. Look at some of the stop-action photos out there, with blades performing amazing undulations. And yet bending a tang twice is supposed to damage it?!

Put it in a vise, bend it back the way you want it.

[El Chucko]

I am gonna suggest trying to fix it yourself, or have a friend do it. Use a vise, if possible. Or you can use the handle of a big wrench if it has a hole in the end.

My club has had a few problems with Physical Chess and associates, so sending it back might be more trouble than it is worth.

[RebelFencer]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

ALL cants are wrong. Thus spake Inquartata.

But seriously, hey, how many times does the average fencing blade flex in its lifetime? Think about the bends you foilists put in your weapons when you're gluing the wires into the channels; think about how they bow every time you hit, and the extreme bends they undergo in the course of a flick or parry. Look at some of the stop-action photos out there, with blades performing amazing undulations. And yet bending a tang twice is supposed to damage it?!

Put it in a vise, bend it back the way you want it.

The tang has a lot less give than the rest of the blade.

[Inquartata]

Because....?

[DJ Apostrophe]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Because....?

Because it is engineered for a different purpose... It is supposed to be stiff, not to bend when it hits something (unlike the rest of the blade). In fact, the tangs are forged separately and then welded on to the rest of the blade.

-w

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

If you're any good, you'll be able to cant it back to where you want.

Just be cautious, wear goggles, and take your time.

[CvilleFencer]

Inq, the vast majority of blades are made by welding a piece of easy to thread/machine but not at all springy barstock onto the shoulder of the base of the fencing blade. When they snap, it is usually the weld snapping as they are not designed for repeated flexing. Hence forth the rule of thumb that you should not bend them repeatedly. However, if you are slow and use the right amount of pressure it should not be a big deal.

Buy the way, not at all surprised to hear of this kind of error coming from PC. And as one poster mentioned, it may be more hassle than it is worth trying to send it back to them. If you do go that route, call them up and have them send you a shipping label. No reason for you to pay to send it back for their mistake...

*Edit... Sorry, I just realized that DJA had said the same thing I just posted....

[Darknova12]

i could bring it back to them -- their like 10 minutes from my house :-D -- I see what you guys mean about the tang being hard to bend -- I put it in a vice last night and tried but i was afraid i'd break it if i applied any more pressure than I did, and it didnt even get the old bend out... this is rather annoying although I have to say this is the first problem I've had with them...if you actually go to the shop their alot easier to deal with than on the phone or online...

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Inq, the vast majority of blades are made by welding a piece of easy to thread/machine but not at all springy barstock onto the shoulder of the base of the fencing blade. When they snap, it is usually the weld snapping as they are not designed for repeated flexing. Hence forth the rule of thumb that you should not bend them repeatedly.

Which probably accounts for the fact that my coach's blades almost always break there, while I have had only 1 or 2 do so in over 20 years of fencing. He always cants his tangs, and I never do.

But I'm sure that's not an argument against canting tangs or anything, no, no.

Seriously, the shoulder area sure seems to be designed for repeated flexing on MY blades. Flexing, after all, is what sabre blades especially do. Mine always end up breaking around a third of the way down from the tip. So maybe it's that they aren't designed to be bent at the join, rather than that they aren't designed to flex there in normal use.

Which brings me back to not canting tangs again.

Anyway, I had always heard that the tang was not only separate but tempered differently as well---left more ductile than the blade steel, so that it can be more easily bent, cut to desired length, etc.

If this is untrue, heck, then just clamp a heat sink onto the join area and then anneal the tang. You can bend it around to your heart's content after that. No?

[yeoldearmourer]

I have bend tangs all the time from left to right and back again you can do it if you know how and it doesn't weaked the tang. Just take a box end wrench3/4 inch does a good job of it slide it down over the tang were it joints the blade and brace the blade with your arm and slow bend the tang.

[erik_blank]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

ALL cants are wrong. Thus spake Inquartata.

But seriously, hey, how many times does the average fencing blade flex in its lifetime? Think about the bends you foilists put in your weapons when you're gluing the wires into the channels; think about how they bow every time you hit, and the extreme bends they undergo in the course of a flick or parry. Look at some of the stop-action photos out there, with blades performing amazing undulations. And yet bending a tang twice is supposed to damage it?!

Put it in a vise, bend it back the way you want it.

Inq:

Speaking as one who has studied (sparingly) metal failure and fatigue failures, what you and many people here are mistaking is a difference between an elastic and an inelastic deformation. When a blade is in use during a bout, the metal will flex elastically to a certain point. thus you will see nice even bends in the blade during a flick, or a nice solid hit, and then bounce back to it's nice straight (or slightly curved) line. But when a blade is bent past the limits of its elasticity, it will stay in that position and will also suffer a reduction in its overall strength. Repeated inelastic bending of a metal part will create microscopic stress fractures in the steel. This is why when a person gets a sharp bend in their blade; they usually will end up having to get a new one soon. In this case, since the tang has already been bent in an inelastic manner in order to set the cant, bending it back to another canted angle will create more stress fractures at a high stress point (the position between the guard and the tang).
As for people never seeing blades break there, I can relate a number of stories of people having their blades fail rather spectacularly at that specific area of the blade. I have had a number of sabers break at the shoulder/tang interface because I kept over torquing them to "keep them tight", and I even presented a paper on failure analysis based on a poor fencer that had his blade shatter in two places due to a failure of the blade at the shoulder.
Turns out that the fencer had the habit of really cranking down on the pommel nut (orthopedic grip) and had also been canting his blade. The combination of these two stresses along with a manufacturing defect in the weld caused a stress fracture when he beat his blade against his opponents. The resulting shockwave from the tang breaking traveled up to another stress fracture about two thirds up the foil blade and caused that to shatter also (I was watching the match when this happened, so I actually saw the process in VERY fast motion...).
The moral of this story? If you are going to cant your blades (and I don't see why you shouldn't) make sure that you position the blade ONCE, and don't go wobbling it back and forth any more than absolutely necessary. Secondly, don't go cranking the pommel nuts down so hard that it takes a 3' wrench to get it to turn a 1/8 turn. Just past hand tight with a standard wrench should do it. More than that and you run the risk of causing stress fractures in the tang/blade interface.

[CvilleFencer]

Nice post Erik_Blank! That is a much more in depth explanation that matches my general understanding. Thanks for the info.