Ballet

**schlager7** · 07-11-2002 04:28 AM

Yesterday,when I stumbled on the Madonna tidbit, I was actually searching the newsgroups for post I had heard about where someone discussed the relationship of ballet and fencing. I found it kind of interesting. The fencing angle is most definitiely a classical fencing perspective. What I found interesting was the reference to a classical ballet/ballet competition schism, which seems to mirror our current sport/classical fencing division.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I sent the posts on ballet and fencing to my daughter who trained extensively
in ballet and later in fencing. She had some interesting comments that might
be of interest to some of you reading this newsgroup, so I'm passing them on.
I hope some of you enjoy them:

<<I agree that ballet is not technically derived from fencing. But the two
disciplines were developed at the same time, and I think they are like cousins.
Maybe you're not doing the same stuff in ballet as in fencing, but you have to
approach both the same way, with a wonderfully seventeeth century frame of
mind, when art was becoming hyper-intellectual, athletes as we know them were
not yet conceived of, and the physical was an extension of the intellectual
realm. You're using your mind to do different things, but you're training for
them with the same intense physciality routed through a very active
intellectual, almost academic plan. When football players start playing
devoted to a strategy and relying on that rather than brute force, this is when
it starts to look balletic. Fencing is all strategy, the physical only exists
to supplement that strategy, and ballet was created, and some would say still
exists, in the same way. There's a larger goal in ballet and fencing, and it's
not just scoring a point - that's not a large goal. The goal in ballet and in
fencing is pages long to describe. Scott often talks about psychological
strategies that span several points in the game, and he finds bouts where
nothing changes to be worthless, even if he wins, and even if he doesn't win by
much. His favorite bouts are the ones where he has to keep adapting his
strategy as he goes along, where you have to lose some touches to win the bout,
because your opponent's strategy is dancing with yours, so to speak.

Ballet, intially and ideally and fencing are about the mind and the soul as
much as they are about scoring the point. In fact, most fencers would rather
not score a touch than score it the wrong way, excpetions of course, but few
and far between. I remember one meet when Scott was fencing the gold medal
bout, and they were fencing for the last point, and his opponent stepped out of
bounds, which is supposed to award a touch to Scott, but Scot declined the
touch because he absolutely refused to win a medal on a technicality. Ballet
has the same purity to it, in the right circumstances. You allow yourself to
be limited by the technique, you reroute energy that could be making you jump
higher into turnout and alignment. You'd rather have a perfectly aligned
arabesque than a high one - you don't want to win the "extension" medal just by
twisting your torso. When you look at the City Ballet these days, and many
places around the country, all that has been completely lost, and that's a very
sad thing, but it's a sign of the times, where athletes completely devoid of
any intellectual purity or discipline are the role models.

So this is how ballet and fencing are the same, in my opinion.>>

Cheers,
Cathy P
<hr /></blockquote>

**D'Artagnan1673** · 07-11-2002 06:00 AM

I really enjoyed reading that. I have seriously considered taking up ballet to suppliment my fencing. However, my girlfriend thinks that wouldn't be a good idea, her dad might start wondering about me.

Schlager, you know that back leap I was doing against Steve back in May, just think how it would look if I actually knew some ballet

You and I, my friend, are some of the few fencers that still try to adhere to the principals as described above. I myself sometimes wonder if I do. Its always good to read something and be reminded of is important. Thanks for posting that!

**Zelda** · 07-11-2002 08:09 AM

Ballet and fencing I can see the resembalance. However I have started taking Bharata Natyam dance classes which are even better. The whole premise of Bharata Natyam, which is an Indian Classical style is sitting down in a plie` like position. The starting foot positions are almost exactly fencing and the muscles used are similar. Its definately improved my balance....

**counter riposte** · 07-11-2002 03:43 PM

Thank you so much for posting that message. I have a friend in fencing class that has taken ballet for 14 years, in fact I think he still does.

Watching him fence is like watching a dance, because his footwork is to be admired. It is like watching something incredibly beautiful and gracefully simplistic motions that make for a remarkably lethal fencer. (Just before counter attacking to his head). He truly brings out the art of fencing rather than the brutality. (I bring out the brutality.)

Kinda goes back to "civilized barbarianism" right D'Art? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

**edew** · 07-11-2002 04:59 PM

I took a beginning ballet class in college, hoping to stretch my already tightening muscles. Didn't do me a bit of good. But had a good time staring at other women's crotches.

**Mergs** · 07-11-2002 05:10 PM

Eric,

And I thought aerobics was a spectator sport!

**Gav** · 07-11-2002 05:13 PM

Mergs,

Aerobic is a spectator sport.

There's a dance class down the hall from us when we're fencing - across from the drinking water. After a bit of intense training there is nothing better than filling up your bottle and being educated in the arts at the same time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

**shyHeidi** · 07-11-2002 08:41 PM

Oh god, not the step aerobics, NOT THE STEP AEROBICS, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!! I can't take it any more!!! Nooo more step aerobics! Waah!!!

For the past couple semesters, I've arrived about an hour early to fencing 'cause I don't drive... Step aerobics... they steal the gym and have horrible god-aweful music and they don't leave on time, and then before our fencing class is over the next step aerobics class or hip-hop class, or whatever comes swarming in and starts setting up their steps in the middle of the strips... Idiots.
Aerobics are evil, wah wah wah.

[insert little dunce dude here] ... we lost the dunce dude too, eh?

... I think we need another frown guy, but one that looks kinda sarcastic, not so sad and gloomy.

**Gav** · 07-11-2002 09:01 PM

Hey Shy'

Step Aerobics is entertainment.

On the subject of classes that are on before fencing:

When I was at Uni' there was a couple who practiced their fan martial art {dunno what its real name is) before us. We all used to turn up early to watch. Very nice, very balletic.

[ 07-12-2002, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: Gav ]

**Sanky** · 07-11-2002 11:58 PM

Gav, I think the fan martial art you are talking about is called Tessen or something like that anyway. A defensive art that was used with iron fans by Samurai.

Oh and we have the same problems with the step classes.

**D'Artagnan1673** · 07-12-2002 06:09 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by counter riposte:


He truly brings out the art of fencing rather than the brutality. (I bring out the brutality.)

Kinda goes back to "civilized barbarianism" right D'Art? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>You got it, Dude! I'd better quite reading this thread, its really making me want to take up ballet, and NOT for Edew's reason

**edew** · 07-12-2002 10:14 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by counter riposte:


He truly brings out the art of fencing rather than the brutality. (I bring out the brutality.)

Kinda goes back to "civilized barbarianism" right D'Art? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>You got it, Dude! I'd better quite reading this thread, its really making me want to take up ballet, and NOT for Edew's reason

<hr /></blockquote>Sorry to hear that, my man!

**latenight** · 07-12-2002 11:58 AM

I want to take it up just for EDEW's reason. ;-)

Also the only reason I could see for ever being a male cheerleader.

But that's just me........

**counter riposte** · 07-12-2002 12:16 PM

It might not be a bad idea to take it up, especially since dance usually has a 3:1 ratio, ballet is around 5:1, and you will eventually get to dance with all the girls... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

**veeco** · 07-12-2002 03:13 PM

I can't remember when or where I read it, but I remember seeing something said along the lines of:

"Dancing is a vertical replacement for people who can't get any horizontal exercise".

**edew** · 07-12-2002 04:22 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by veeco:
I can't remember when or where I read it, but I remember seeing something said along the lines of:

"Dancing is a vertical replacement for people who can't get any horizontal exercise".<hr /></blockquote>For some, it could be replacement. For others, it is the prelude to.

That said, I don't think ballet is the place to get the preludes (or even a replacement). Cheerleading and social dancing are certainly places where set the situation for a prelude to horizontal mambos.

**135711** · 07-12-2002 04:27 PM

i took ballet for a short while it's great - you stretch out everything. the barre streches are perfect just before fencing, it gets the muscles just right and your lunges are much better from there.

**schlager7** · 07-14-2002 07:48 AM

After I initially posted the newsgroup item on ballet and fencing, I found another on a ballet newsgroup that indicated the author did some hunting. I particularly enjoyed the remarks of singer/songwriter and former fencer, Neil Diamond...

The first quote referenced this site
<a href="http://www.kipar.org/history_france_etiquette.html" target="_blank">French Etiquette</a>

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> we found a wonderful piece on social movements in the 17th century which
related that social postures were drawn from fencing and ballet -
“Male movement in this period was primarily influenced by the high-heeled
shoes worn; the poses and many steps were like those in a ballet, an art highly
respected by Louis XIV, who prided himself on his perfect legs and on his own
ballet performances. Fencing was the other major activity that affected male
movement. Therefore movement based on certain ballet positions and fencing
stances that gave it grace, simplicity, and, if practised correctly, a classic
and structured beauty........There are three important stances for the
courtier: The first, a simple and rather heroic posture not acceptable in the
presence of one's superior, was the second ballet position, with feet about a
foot apart and slightly spread while the hands rested gracefully on the hips.

The second was the third enclosed ballet position; that is, feet perpendicular
to one another with the weight on the rear foot and with the heel of the front
foot at the hollow of the rear foot.”

And it seems that it is widely held believed that ballet positions were derived
from fencing (at least among the fencing crowd). <hr /></blockquote>The author then added this quote from this site
<a href="http://www.umass.edu/umassmag/archives/2001/winter2001/sport.html" target="_blank">http://www.umass.edu/umassmag /archives/2001/winter2001/sport.html</a>
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Sise (fencing coach at UMass) says “You can tell when something’s ugly.
It’s a grapple instead of clean action.” Adds Coombs, “When it goes well,
it’s ballet.” There’s a reason for the comparison: Classical dance owes
much of its form to the 800-year-old sport of swordplay. Some positions, such
as basic position in fencing and first position in ballet, are identical.
<hr /></blockquote>...and apparently at <a href="http://www.maya.com/local/senn/fencing.html" target="_blank">http://www.maya.com/local/senn/fencing.html</a>

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> A guy named Jeff says:

"Many of the ballet positions are derived from fencing -- they were used in
17th century dances at the French court, partly because they could be readily
taught to the men and partly because of their combination of grace and
strength."

And this site <a href="http://www.trentu.ca/stuorg/fencing/photo12.html" target="_blank">Trent University Fencing</a>

strangely refers to something referred to as the art of "Ballet
Fencing", which appears to be a trademarked title! I am dying to know what
this is and how it differs from standard fencing or ballet.
<hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr /> And lastly, we stumbled upon this interview with Neil Diamond, who brings music
into the ballet/fencing arena:

FAMILY WEEKLY: You didn't major in music at NYU?

NEIL DIAMOND: No, I majored in biology, in a pre-med program. Songwriting is
different from music, although I don't deny now that it would be nice to have a
little more background in music theory. . . . . By the time I was in my third
year, I was interested only in fencing and writing songs.

FW: What was the attraction of fencing?

DIAMOND: It's a terrific way to vent your aggressiveness, for one thing, and I
needed that. It's physical combat in a classical sense, and it's beautiful to
see and do. I've always thought of it as similar to ballet. One of the things
I've been panting to do, in fact, is write some music for a fencing-ballet -
the movements, music, and staging would seem to go naturally together. My
movements onstage actually incorporate fencing moves. I've looked at
photographs of myself during concerts, and it sometimes looks as if I'm in a
fencing move, with a guitar in my hands instead of a sword.

OK - so who is going to contact Mr. Diamond and see if he's done any work on
this project and if he needs a choreographer to stage the work?
<hr /></blockquote>I guess for awhile, fencing was a hot topic on the ballet site...

**Zelda** · 07-14-2002 10:41 AM

Or better yet, who do we talk too to get involved in performing the thing?

**counter riposte** · 07-15-2002 10:55 AM

In that case Z,

You owe me a dance if I get to the UK before September. PS: WHERE IS OZ?

I would have to say that the both are similar, in the way that both are complex and beautiful movements when executed properly, yet I don't have as much pride in my legs as Louis XIV. One brings beauty, the other violent beauty. I will say though that dance really does bring about a better fencer. If you think about it, dance is all about keeping time. Fencing is about knowing the time and breaking the time. If you have ever danced with a beginning dancer, you would know exactly what I'm talking about. The feeling is the same way you can disembowl an inexperienced fencer.

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