Estoc Screwless Epee Tip - Worth Using?

[griffindm]

I would like to know the experiences of Fnetters using this type of tip. What are the advantages and drawbacks, and is it worth using as a general replacement for your existing tips? How durable is the tip?

[Oh - I did do a forum search first. Not much out there other than scattered comments]

Thanks!

[brtech]

It's not bad. You definitely don't lose screws with it

It's a pain to set travel, because you have to unscrew, change the contact spring setting, screw it in, test the shims, unscrew and repeat until it's right. Takes me about twice as long as a conventional tip. Not as bad as a Schermasport, which needs a post filed down.

Seems to keep its setting at least as well as the conventional tip, and maybe longer.

You need a thin wrench to loosen and tighten it. A C wrench definitely doesn't work.

I haven't noticed any other problems with it.

Nothing is interchangeable with the conventional point. Wait, I don't know if the pressure (large) spring is the same as the french/german. Never had to change one.

[little_old_me]

I've switched all my tips to the Estoc Screwless. I really like them. They are a pain to set up initially. However, if you do it right, you'll never have to adjust them after that. Make sure you get all Estoc springs, as there are some weird sizing differences (namely normal contact springs being too long and not fitting). Also, once you get the contact spring set, put a small drop of glue on the contact spring post. This keeps the spring from gradually moving over time. Also, put a drop of Blue Locktite on the point assembly when you have it set. This keeps the point from coming loose with repeated use.

brtech is right, though. Normal wrenches won't fit in the space for the tip. I use a small vise-grip and grab the rounded area that isn't designed to hold a wrench, and it works fine for me. Once you break the locktite loose, you can do the rest by hand.

Like I said, once these are set, I've never had a problem. You will get some funny looks from directors when you use them, which is kinda amusing.

Also, just an afterthought... when dry bouting at practice, I can no longer hear the familiar "click" of the point when I land a touch. This is because there is no metal to metal contact being made when the tip depresses aside from the contact spring and the wireing. (no screws hitting the barrel)

[shlepzig]

I like the Estoc tip, and have several epees wired with them.

I have also wired up several with the Schermasport tip.

The Estoc tip is cheaper, and smoother. Once it is set, does stay in adjustment for a long time. It can be trickey to get set right. But the smoothness is key. I have mine paired with LP blades and can pull off some very magical flicks because of the smoothness.

The main issue with the estoc tip is that the entire tip can rotate in the nylon busing. Because it uses a standard spring, it seems that the end of the spring can catch on one of the two posts and can get deformed in such a particular event. Usually, counter into a fleche, and your hand will rotate after a hit to let off the pressure.

Because the tip rotates the shim adjustment can change very slightly.

Shlep.

[jjefferies]

Like other posters I switched to the Estoc. A bit more expensive but definitely smoother for longer. STILL you do need to take them apart and clean them as Scott Harkey of Sword Masters will tell you. Adjustment of the contact spring may take slightly longer than that of a conventional german tip. But I couldn't tell for sure. As one poster commented the springs used on the Estocs are slightly shorter. I use just a regular german contact spring and cut the 1st turn to 1 1/2 turns off, slightly bend the cut end in and then use that as the end to screw on first. Depending on the spring and the tips there can be a dead place if you rotate the spring and check for continuity all the way around. Likewise it can go out, i.e. be too close. For the most part this has been a trivial problem. With my day to day weapons I just use them. The tournament weapons are the ones which I check closely enough to see the difference. As near as I can tell the problems with contact springs relates to the contact post either being cut slightly small or the threads being too deep which necessitates the use of a glue to hold them in place. That and possibly that the tip rotates when hitting the main weight spring which causes the tip to rotate slightly so that when the contact spring touches down it receives a slight twist which with time will cause it to retract. You can come up with your own explanation. But it didn't occur with the first Estocs I bought so I figure it's a manufacturing problem.

But I have completely switched over so I favor them especially for tournament play, two vet world championships so far.

[griffindm]

Thanks everyone for their input. I will order a new blade or two with the Estoc tip and give them a good workout. If I'm happy with them in 6 months I'll change all of them over.

[LeftHanded]

I've been thinking about switching to these. I have a friend that uases these and has had one of these on his epee for two years and has never had a problem. Also he said that he rarely ever has to fix for shim. Anyways, Do they sell these here?

[KD5MDK]

They're sold by Sword Masters.

[SJCFU#2]

Originally Posted by LeftHanded

Do they sell these here?

Try Sword Masters (www.sword-masters.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=2)

[LeftHanded]

That is where my friend got his I just have never bought anything frim them before. Are they reliable? Are they hard to put in?

[brtech]

Swordmasters is an excellent supplier. You should have no concerns dealing with them.

The Estoc point is installed the same as any other epee tip, save the contact spring adjustment process.

[piste off]

Originally Posted by brtech

Swordmasters is an excellent supplier. You should have no concerns dealing with them.

The Estoc point is installed the same as any other epee tip, save the contact spring adjustment process.

Do these work with conventional wires, like the excellent ones from Absolute?

Rick

[brtech]

Yep, they seem to. I haven't used Absolute epee wires yet, but I've rewired Estoc equipped epees with french and german wires. The contact spring is a different length, but it's the same diameter, and the tip mechanically works the same way as other epee tips.

Probably best to get Garry or Scott to say for sure, but I haven't had problems yet.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by brtech

It's a pain to set travel, because you have to unscrew, change the contact spring setting, screw it in, test the shims, unscrew and repeat until it's right. Takes me about twice as long as a conventional tip. Not as bad as a Schermasport, which needs a post filed down.

Nothing is interchangeable with the conventional point. Wait, I don't know if the pressure (large) spring is the same as the french/german. Never had to change one.

If you use a Schermasport do not file down the post. There are washers inside the tip, these are added or removed to adjust the travel. Filing down, can you keep it straight? What happens when it is too short add solder? Both methods destroy the elegent design of making a tip that does not go out of adjustment. I personally prefer the Schermasport over the Estoc, but I also prefer the Caramarri over other Foil Connectors. They are both more expensive and take more work to initially set them up initially, but they also are more reliable. I don't normally recommend them as they do take a lot more work them most fencers would like.

As jjeffries said you can use regular contact springs on the Estoc if you modify them and other wires do work on them.

[DangerMouse]

As a user of the Schermasport tips, I can't find a way to access the washers inside the tip. How do you do it?

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by DangerMouse

As a user of the Schermasport tips, I can't find a way to access the washers inside the tip. How do you do it?

At the top of the tip you will find a large screw (relatively speaking). When you remove this you will have access to all inside. Be very very careful. Everything inside is extremely small.

The parts:
1) Screw
2) Spring to keep pressure on the tip plunger
3) tip plunger
4) extremely small and thin washers

The spring does not have a lot of force, but be careful when you remove the screw so the spring does not escape. Take out the spring. Push up on the plunger from the bottom to release it and turn over into a small container. The washers will be around the plunger. The more washers will lift the plunger thus shorten the plunger. Removing washers lower the plunger.

This is the same concept of lengthening and shortening the travel spring, but once done it does not change.

[DangerMouse]

There doesn't appear to be a screw at the top of the tip. Has the design changed in recent years?

[griffindm]

Originally Posted by LeftHanded

That is where my friend got his I just have never bought anything frim them before. Are they reliable? Are they hard to put in?

To follow up on my original thread, I did get a new blade configured with the Estoc tip from the manager of my fencing club, who does excellent work, and had worked with the Estoc tip before. While I loved the smooth feel of the tip, I had problems with routine touches that should have scored not registering with the machine. Each time afterwards, the tip would test fine. Eventually the contact spring broke. This within three days of fencing after getting it. After it was replaced, it slipped down into constant contact with the wire contacts after another two days. I have since had the tip replaced with a conventional German tip.

It's a shame. I loved the concept. I know a little locktite might have fixed the slippage, but it was a little to 'goofy' in use to keep.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

4) extremely small and thin washers.

And God help you if you sneeze while playing with those washers!

[remise]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

And God help you if you sneeze while playing with those washers!

That sounds like the voice of experience.