Ahhhhhh! My Knees!!!

[LeftHanded]

I use alot of crouching and Posse Soto (spelling?) and my knees and ankles take a real beating. I am really starting to feel it in my left hip, left knee and both ankles. I might start wearing a knee band but is there anything else?

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Yep.....

1. Evaluate your form, make sure you're not doing anything really terrible, like turning your knee in.
2. Get some big-boy shoes, like stabils, barricades or rockets.
3. STRETCH!
4. Strengthen your legs with barbell squats.
5. Rest some more.
6. Make sure you're getting enough sleep and food.

[Zilverzmurfen]

I use alot of crouching and Posse Soto (spelling?) and my knees and ankles take a real beating. I am really starting to feel it in my left hip, left knee and both ankles. I might start wearing a knee band but is there anything else?

I know some fencers take glucosamine. Go for those neoprene knee 'braces' thingies, I find they give a little support etc.

(And it's Passata Sotto. )

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I know some fencers take glucosamine. Go for those neoprene knee 'braces' thingies, I find they give a little support etc.

(And it's Passata Sotto. )

I actually disagree with wearing knee braces (specifically the cho-pat kind, that go around the knee like a bracelet). I think they just relieve pressure on the injured part of the tendon, and focus the pressure higher up on the tendon, to where it inserts.

[keropie]

Stop doing things that are hurting your knees? See a physical therapist and see if they can suggest ways to strenghten your legs/knees?

I'm not sure what exactly you mean by crouching (I mean, all of us should bend our knees when en guarde, so how much more bending are you doing?), and a correctly done passto sotto shouldn't do a lot more to your knees than a lunge, but it sounds like your a squirmer. I can see ways that might be bad for the knees, so maybe a more orthodox style of fencing would be better.

And check out that therapist/medical professional idea.

[HDG]

Why are you doing the passata soto often? Unless your coach is having you do this, it really doesn't merit a lot of attention.

[Epee Scherma]

I would recommend examining your activities outside of fencing too. When I worked at a restaurant I noticed my knees and achilles tendon were in much more stress after fencing. I quit this job recently, and fence even more. However the stress in these parts are gone.

[pancavalier41]

(Disclaimer: These are just suggestions)

While I'm not quite sure what a posse soto is, or however you spell it, but here are a few issues that come to mind with this type of injury.

1. Usually when you have an injury that affects one entire side of the body (like your leg in this case) usually it stems from 1 problem that has grown and affected all other joints. In this case if it started with your knees you'd be over compensating with other joints, like your ankle and hip. The best way to fix this is find out what the initial problem is, fix it and then treat the other problems. With this in mind, take this into consideration:

a. Is your form proper? Could you be bending or putting your joints in an improper "anatomical" position (one your body doesn't like)? If so, then why?
b. Are you/your legs in proper physical shape to be doing these activities? I dont know your abilities or physical characteristics, but this may be a valid point. This can also come into effect if you have had any previous lower body injuries and have not fully healed/rehabed from them. If you have had joint problems, or leg problems in the past (particularly ankle) this may cause your current problem. Your leg is like a chain. If one part is off mechanically it effects the rest of the leg. Most problems start with the ankle
c. Equipment issues. How are your shoes? Braces? If your uniform restricting?
d. What are you doing outside of fencing that could be causing this problem? Work? Social life? Other sports/exercise?

With your current problem, treatment should consist of:
1. Find out why you have this problem (improper skill mechanism, improper shape...)
2. Realize how to fix that situation.
3. Treat the pain with RICE (Rest, Ice, Compression, Elevation, Support) until pain subsides. NSAIDs (over the counter anti imflammatory drugs) may help if you are not allergic or have any adverse effects from these drugs
4. Take a rest from these activities that cause pain. Sometime your body heals best with just rest.
5. Once you have reduced pain and problem start light stretching and strengthening of your lower body (calves, quads, hams, hip flexors and glutes) which you should be doing already for fencing. The stronger your lower body, the less chance of overuse/form injury.
6. Braces may help temporarily, depending on the problem. I dont know your exact problem, but if you email me I can suggest some braces for you.

Other than that take it easy, and listen to your body. If something hurts for more than a day or so, usually there is a problem. Or you just need a rest day. But the key is to listen to your body.

[Zilverzmurfen]

I actually disagree with wearing knee braces (specifically the cho-pat kind, that go around the knee like a bracelet). I think they just relieve pressure on the injured part of the tendon, and focus the pressure higher up on the tendon, to where it inserts.

I'm not sure what a 'Cho-Pat' is, but the ones I mean are the neoprene knee braces (protectors? I'm uncertain of the correct word in english) that looks like this and this.

The latter one is particularly good if you have the condition -- I've forgotten its name -- where it hurts sort of under you knee-cap, especially when you walk down stairs. (Up too, but downstairs is more painful.)

[pancavalier41]

I'm not sure what a 'Cho-Pat' is, but the ones I mean are the neoprene knee braces (protectors? I'm uncertain of the correct word in english) that looks like this and this.

The latter one is particularly good if you have the condition -- I've forgotten its name -- where it hurts sort of under you knee-cap, especially when you walk down stairs. (Up too, but downstairs is more painful.)

The "cho-pat" strap, aka jumpers knee strap, is used to treat and prevent patellar tendinitis, or jumpers knee. It's a strap that you place around the lower leg just under the knee cap to keep the patellar tendon in place. In fencers, patellar tendinitis is mostly caused by inproper lunge, enxtending a lunge too far and too much bending of the knee. I don't think this is the answer to this your problem.

The other main type of over the counter brace is the neoprene tpye knee sleeves/brace. Those are like the ones that are mentioned in the post above. Most are just general and give support, but not many have specific problems they help with. This type of brace may help give you support, but chances are it will not cure your problem. I suggest trying this brace to see if it helps. You can find them at sporting good stores. If you will be using it for a while get a good quality one like Cramer, Mueller or Swede-O.

[arc]

I'm not sure what a 'Cho-Pat' is, but the ones I mean are the neoprene knee braces (protectors? I'm uncertain of the correct word in english) that looks like this and this.

The latter one is particularly good if you have the condition -- I've forgotten its name -- where it hurts sort of under you knee-cap, especially when you walk down stairs. (Up too, but downstairs is more painful.)

Are you referring to chondromalacia patella? It's caused by poor tracking of the patella over the end of the femur, and is typically treated with physical therapy to strengthen the quadriceps to improve tracking ... and has a number of wonderful symptoms, my favorite being the sound of rice krispies when I'm going down stairs. There are some patellar bands that fit around the leg just below the knee that are touted to help tracking, which may be what the prior poster was referring to -- the one's you've linked to will have patellar stabilization as well, but really don't help the underlying problem a great deal, from what I've read.

I'd bet Peter Harmer would be a great guy to ask about this ...

[fatfencer]

I use alot of crouching and Posse Soto (spelling?) and my knees and ankles take a real beating. I am really starting to feel it in my left hip, left knee and both ankles. I might start wearing a knee band but is there anything else?

Are you Adam Pantel or his Dad???

Seriously though, why not try and fence from a proper on guard and not like you are having convulsions? These techniques are meant for the occasional, surprise, hail mary kind of thing. A trick for your repertoire and not meant to BE your repertoire. Did you build your own custom, full torso, Lexan chest protector too?

If you are having these problems try NOT fencing like a coward with Tourrette's Syndrome and fence proudly. Guarantee that your bodily functions will return to normal.

Crouching Silly Man, Hidden Lame'...


FF

PS: That's Passata Soto

[Goldgar]

Are you Adam Pantel or his Dad???

ROTFL

But they're not left-handed.

[LeftHanded]

D+F+P=Hadouken, maybe you can give a better description of what I do. I crouch more often than most people but the problem is not so much a strength but I will go down extremly low and from their lunge/ fleche or do a toe touch. When I go down I go down quick and hard and my toes,ankles, and knees work almost like shock absorbers. I know that the easy solution is to stop but.. i would rather just learn a way or technique that will take some of the stress off.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

D+F+P=Hadouken, maybe you can give a better description of what I do. I crouch more often than most people but the problem is not so much a strength but I will go down extremly low and from their lunge/ fleche or do a toe touch. When I go down I go down quick and hard and my toes,ankles, and knees work almost like shock absorbers. I know that the easy solution is to stop but.. i would rather just learn a way or technique that will take some of the stress off.

Take the stress off?

Stretch more and do some barbell squats.

[JEC]

I know some fencers take glucosamine. Go for those neoprene knee 'braces' thingies, I find they give a little support etc.

(And it's Passata Sotto. )

I do what Z.. is telling you. Stretch before it also helps. If pain continues consult a sports medicine physician before it is too late. The Cho-strap is helpful, but i find the neoprene sleeve with open hole for patella better for me. I have both.

[Hollywood Troy]

Okay, like everyone pretty much said- look at your form and make sure you're doing everything correctly. I can only speak for myself, but my knees were really hurting after getting back into the sport after a long absence. I big one for me was making sure I came down heel-toe on advances, and pulling with my back leg on retreats at the same time as pushing with my front leg. Second, however much you stretch out, do more. I stretch before, halfway through, and after my gym workouts. I stretch before I fence, and then I try to do a little between every bout. It's made a world of difference for me. Third, not to say suck it up and work through the pain- (which is more dangerous the older you get) but through working out at the gym and fencing more I seem to have less and less knee pain. I don't know how all that stuff works, other than it all works together, but as I've increased muscle strength and flexibilty it seems like more and more strain has been taken away from my joints. Another thing to try is to get a personal trainer with a real degree or certificate that knows about how muscles and joints work. By some amazing chance I found a trainer that worked with a fencer before, but I would imagine someone that worked with tennis, racquetball, volleyball, or basketball players might be a good start.

[jessicasimpson]

Sounds like you have tight IT Bands, and a tight tensor fascia latte. stretch them.

[parryDoh]

I have had runners knee and jumpers knee from fencing. Seen a sports med doc for it several times. They can give you strengthening exercises and stretches that really help. But the best thing i found out, taking advice from a runner, replace your shoes often, even if they dont appear worn. I replaced my worn adidas shoes with a new pair and my knees are almost completely better a few weeks later. Runners have to replace shoes every few months, but im hoping fencing shoes last longer.

[Hollywood Troy]

I have had runners knee and jumpers knee from fencing. Seen a sports med doc for it several times. They can give you strengthening exercises and stretches that really help. But the best thing i found out, taking advice from a runner, replace your shoes often, even if they dont appear worn. I replaced my worn adidas shoes with a new pair and my knees are almost completely better a few weeks later. Runners have to replace shoes every few months, but im hoping fencing shoes last longer.

I also had replaced my shoes in addition to all that stuff i did in my earlier post, so I think that had something to do with my knees getting better.