Whipe out Israel!

[jeff]

Inq's post above wins "Best Post Of The Month". About 18 days left, but that's a high bar to surpass.

The politics of preemptive attack to take out a threat are complicated, aren't they? Israel took out that Iraqi reactor many years ago, for which we should all be grateful, yet many condemned their act as an aggressive, imperialist provocation. I sort of suspect that many countries secretly wish Israel would do the same with Iran, despite the challenges involved (it will be much harder), so they can enjoy the benefits of Iran being denied nuclear weapons yet continue to hypocritically condemn Israel for having saved their (non-kosher) bacon again.

pigeonmeister: many people on my side of the pond will not understand "own goal" (beyond the redundancy, all "own goals" are unnecessart, wot?)

I agree with pigeonmeister that the conference was vile (if that's not vile, then what does it take to achieve that label?) That's entirely a different question than "should particular speech be banned". The latter is about whether or not vile speech should be banned, not whether particular speech is vile in the first place. I think Europe has a different perspective on free speech than the US, where we enshrine it as a fundamental right (subject to some constraints, and occasionally abused both its its use and suppression - eg, the Alien and Sedition Acts). Europe, having first hand experience of consequences of certain forms of speech, and concerned post WW II about resurgence of neo-Nazis (like cockroaches, they never seem to fully go away) have taken a different approach.

Beside that: I agree that Ahmadinejad is using this nasty rhetoric to try to undermine Israel's basis, but he also plays to (and shares) the endemic, severe anti-Semitism of his ilk. If Israel had never been founded after WW II, there would still be holocaust deniers. As far as it all being talk, that's completely unconvincing. He's working very hard to create a nuclear weapon capability for his country, has vigorously promoted the idea of nuking Israel. It's silly to wave this away as an idle threat. It's not just the Israeli's who are worried about this: The Saudi's have made it very clear that they are very worried about the idea of a nuclear Iran.

[introspective]

It never works to have one country soley of one religion, it just sets things up for conflict. Do you take my meaning.

[TrainingDummy]

Actually, if the world was one big country with only one religion, international conflict would cease to exist. Looks like Iran's taking steps in the right direction!

[OROD]

What perplexes me is why, in Europe, denying the holocaust is a criminal offense.

Is it all of Europe, or just Germany? And the answer is (at least in Germany), that the Germans have no understanding of freedom or free speach. They didnt before WWII, and they dont now. The only difference is the excuse for limiting people's freedoms. Whether it's what people say, or the color of blood in video games, or whether "laser tag" style games are outlawed, they just dont get it. The irony is that they impose their current form of tyranny with the supposed goal of preventing a recurance of previous tyranny.

.

[OROD]

I will not deal with the moral issue, but if you were referring to legal rights, your statement may be factually wrong in many jurisdictions. If you were over here and did such a shooting, you would find that the police force would put the task of apprehending you very high on their priority list, and you would get taken in. You would (unless you are cop or bar guard, they get away with all sorts of stuff) get serious jail time. Once in the slammer, the friends of those 6 would be there to greet you, and you would not have a gun at your disposal. Better to throw your wallet and run. Firing a shot in the air might very well land you in jail also, but not for as long.

I see... so, if I'm facing 6 knife-wielding attackers I should turn my back to make it easier on them to kill me. Do I have that right? Yet, if instead of being terminally retarded, I use my weapon to defend myself I go to prison. Correct? Well then, I'm glad I dont live in Sweden!

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[TrainingDummy]

I see... so, if I'm facing 6 knife-wielding attackers I should turn my back to make it easier on them to kill me. Do I have that right? Yet, if instead of being terminally retarded, I use my weapon to defend myself I go to prison. Correct? Well then, I'm glad I dont live in Sweden!

.

As much as your politics are at odd with mine sometimes, I have to agree with you. I am a big fan fan of the governmental social programs of Europe, especially Scandinavia, but can never understand the way so many of them have taken away the right to defend oneself with force in one's own home.

[Bryn Ralph]

Returning to the issues between Israel and the Teheran regime, one might want to re-read T.E. Lawrence's perspective on the Middle East. If the Arabs and the ancient Persians ever get together, militarily speaking, then Israel will know that the moment has arrived for action of extreme prejudice.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Correct? Well then, I'm glad I dont live in Sweden!

So am I!


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Zilverzmurfen]

As much as your politics are at odd with mine sometimes, I have to agree with you. I am a big fan fan of the governmental social programs of Europe, especially Scandinavia, but can never understand the way so many of them have taken away the right to defend oneself with force in one's own home.

Of course you have the right to defend yourself in your own home -- if you're attacked. However, you do not -- like in the US -- have the right to shoot people for "trespassing".

[Inquartata]

So am I!

Yeeeouch!

[OROD]

So am I!


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

It's good to agree on things.

[OROD]

Of course you have the right to defend yourself in your own home -- if you're attacked. However, you do not -- like in the US -- have the right to shoot people for "trespassing".

Look, I'm no expert on law, and I'm not claiming that one has the right to shoot someone for tresspassing. However, I believe you have the right to defend yourself when you are threatened. And that's where the problem lies, because "threatened" is in the mind of the victim. A person cant know the future, so there's no such thing as knowing that you will be hurt or killed. You can only "believe" that you are in danger. So, again, if someone tresspasses and I believe I'm in danger, would I or would I not in Sweden have the right to defend myself? Or, even if threatened, would I be compelled by law to do nothing until a knife was sticking out of my chest???

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[TrainingDummy]

Of course you have the right to defend yourself in your own home -- if you're attacked. However, you do not -- like in the US -- have the right to shoot people for "trespassing".

Look, they just keep running on my lawn, OK? I tell them to get away but they just keep kicking that damn fool ball into my lawn! Look, I didn't take a bullet in my thigh at Omaha beach so those damn kids could kick that ball in my yard! If it wasn't for me, they would all be speaking German. Truman would never have stood for it, I tell you!

[OROD]

"Guns dont kill people. The Government does!" -Dale, "King of the Hill"

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[introspective]

Is it all of Europe, or just Germany? And the answer is (at least in Germany), that the Germans have no understanding of freedom or free speach. They didnt before WWII, and they dont now. The only difference is the excuse for limiting people's freedoms. Whether it's what people say, or the color of blood in video games, or whether "laser tag" style games are outlawed, they just dont get it. The irony is that they impose their current form of tyranny with the supposed goal of preventing a recurance of previous tyranny.

.

Go scratch. Leave Germany alone, as you know nothing about Germany. I'm sick and tired of a bunch of maschocists screaming about the so called "white countries because they lack the courage to scream at areas that deserve it. And I am sick and tired of Germany taking a hit because of all the crap that the middle east has done over the years. Terrorists went into Germany long ago and screwed everything up." England does the same thing, now they're saying that Diana was not murdered. And she was. Its the same garbage as the stupid bunch of cowards screaming that Jack the Ripper was a Doctor or a member of the Royal Family. They simply whip themselves over the back because they are still apologizing for Slavery and for the Holocost. They are all sorry about everything, but all those events are past history; and now let's look at what is going on today.

[TrainingDummy]

What in God's name are you talking about?

[mrbiggs]

Go scratch. Leave Germany alone, as you know nothing about Germany. I'm sick and tired of a bunch of maschocists screaming about the so called "white countries because they lack the courage to scream at areas that deserve it.

Like that Japan thing?

[OROD]

What in God's name are you talking about?

I see in his profile that he's a government worker. Maybe it was that crack I made about the government that set him off. Hey introspective, you dont work for the Post Office by any chance, do you?

[Inquartata]

At last, Mango is identified---as Cliff Claven!

[Phaeton]

They are all sorry about everything, but all those events are past history; and now let's look at what is going on today.

Did someone forget their thorazine today?

Are you implying we shouldn't be looking at history? The current political landscape was essentialy set up by WWI and particularly by a fellow named Otto Von Bismarck.