That Spark

[Li'l Bebe]

Hey coaches (or anyone else who feels like responding)

How do you tell if a fencer has that spark of talent that can make them really great? Does it appear when they first pick up a blade, or is it later in training?

Say there are two fencers: they both have been fencing at the same club under the same coach for 10 years. They've trained equally hard an equal amount of time. (same age, weapon, gender, etc.)

Yet one is a successful international fencer, and one hardly makes the top 32 at national tournaments.

What makes the difference? (BTW, this was 100% hypothetical situation)

Your thoughts?

[RebelFencer]

Innate talent, work ethic, and intelligence. Athleticism too, but I'd put that with work ethic since 10 years is obscenely more than enough time to become an athlete if you didn't start out as one.

[Allen Evans]

You’ve eliminated a lot of variables in your hypothetical question, but there are still a lot of qualities you haven’t taken the measure of. Things like: creativity, intelligence, the ability to work towards a positive outcome in their sport, and any differences in innate physical skills between the two fencers can make a big difference in results.

Good fencers are smart enough and creative enough to see new answers to the same problems, and use old information to solve new problems. For instance, both fencers are taught to make a beat fleche to the arm in épée. Is one smart enough, and creative enough to understand that the same action will work to the thigh? Can be done after a retreat when it’s only taught with an advance? The coach can bridge some of these gaps, and help the fencer learn how to think about his or her sport, but the coach cannot cover all possible bout situations in each lesson. Better fencers create answers to the problems the opponent presents on the fly.

The two fencers wake up on the morning of their competitions. One fencer says to herself in the mirror: “Wow, I hope I don’t suck today. I don’t feel ready for this at all!” The other fencer says to herself: “I can’t wait to get to the venue and start fencing!”. Which fencer is going to have the better outcome that day? Over the course of their career? Moods and feelings vary from day to day and from competition to competition, and not everyone is “up” all the time. But the people who are “up” about their fencing tend to have better results, and to get more out of BAD results.

Biology is not destiny. However, some fencers just seem to have physical skills that others do not. There is the simple example of the tall vs. short épée fencer, but sometimes it extends deeper and more subtly than that. Some fencers really ARE faster than others. Some see better. Some are more explosive. Still, it’s important to not put too much emphasis on physical skills in a sport like fencing, which allows so many different types of fencers to do well.

Just "some thoughts".

Allen Evans

[Coldfire]

Originally Posted by Li'l Bebe

Does it appear when they first pick up a blade, or is it later in training?

Well it certainly doesn't have to be when they first pick up the blade. Some have a love for the sport immediatly and for others it takes some time to develop the passion. Personally I was the latter.

[Durando]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

The two fencers wake up on the morning of their competitions. One fencer says to herself in the mirror: “Wow, I hope I don’t suck today. I don’t feel ready for this at all!” The other fencer says to herself: “I can’t wait to get to the venue and start fencing!”. Which fencer is going to have the better outcome that day? Over the course of their career? Moods and feelings vary from day to day and from competition to competition, and not everyone is “up” all the time. But the people who are “up” about their fencing tend to have better results, and to get more out of BAD results.

Allen, I think the above is a very good answer to an essentially impossible question. It's not a question I think that a coach should spend much time worrying about because, after all, a young fencer is susceptible to develop passions for--who knows? Archery? Medicine? Whatever.

I'm lucky enough to watch the development of two, maybe three, fencers who are destined for very high levels of competition. I would say, if there is a common aspect to all of them, they visibly enjoy being on the piste. Although they have egotistical moments, their enjoyment is infectious. They seem happy when fencing.

[LeftHanded]

I think when they put up good competition and have only been fencing for a few months. I know a few people like this.

[AdamH]

I think Mr Evans squarely hits the quality that matters, and that's being able to raise one's game when the situation requires it. It's a certain mix of creativity, intelligence, the athleticism that we ride on and a certain fearlessness that allows someone to let go of their favourite and best game in favour of something that will work in the right environment.

In many endeavours which require effort and progressive improvement, improvement is rarely smoothly progressive. It's usually a case of jumping a notch at a time, hitting a plateau, then working through the flat patch until the next bounce up. Being able to play and train in these challenging periods and not just fall back to what is safe is a pretty good indicator of what an individual might be capable of later.

Someone might have a fast hand, a tricksy mind, sense of tempo and whatnot, but in general (and apart from results) it is the mental qualities that will allow a development through the discipline of playing fencing as an individual in the long run.

[Sciurus-Rex]

I know it's not part of your initial query, but something worth noting just the same: Not all coaches are capable of recognizing or responding to the "spark" even if it's present.

And it's not a simple toggle, either -- not just a matter of having "what it takes," yes or no. Sometimes you'll find a potential competitive athlete who has, say, 85 percent of that indefinable quality and could potentially rise to the heights of his sport if only the right coach is able to take an active interest in helping develop that other 15 percent. All it takes is a single mismatch in personality and it all falls to waste.

[eac]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

The two fencers wake up on the morning of their competitions. One fencer says to herself in the mirror: “Wow, I hope I don’t suck today. I don’t feel ready for this at all!” The other fencer says to herself: “I can’t wait to get to the venue and start fencing!”.

There are exceptions to this, namely me. Almost every significant high-watermark result for me has come when I was completely sure that I was going to do terribly, and was resigned to this fact. And, almost every significantly bad tournament (relative to my skill at the time) has come when I was eager to go and kick some a$$. The basic idea is that when I'm completely resigned to doing terribly, I calm down and just fence, which doubles my goodness, whereas when I think I can do well, I get nervous and think about what it would mean to do well and whether it'll happen and oh my god oops! I just missed the cut.

Maybe I'm a psychopath, but there it is.

[rac]

Originally Posted by eac

There are exceptions to this, namely me. Almost every significant high-watermark result for me has come when I was completely sure that I was going to do terribly, and was resigned to this fact. And, almost every significantly bad tournament (relative to my skill at the time) has come when I was eager to go and kick some a$$. The basic idea is that when I'm completely resigned to doing terribly, I calm down and just fence, which doubles my goodness, whereas when I think I can do well, I get nervous and think about what it would mean to do well and whether it'll happen and oh my god oops! I just missed the cut.

Maybe I'm a psychopath, but there it is.

I think I agree with you about this. Not worrying about the outcome and "letting it all hang out" for better or worse can lead to some really great performances from people who tend to think too much. I have seen this many times.

rac

[eac]

Incidentally, to get back to the original topic, I think the set of people who, just based on their innate qualities, could be international is much larger than the set of people who actually try. The innate qualities might be physical health, good vision, a reasonably logical mind, and a sense of adversarial empathy-- the intuition about what your opponent is thinking, and how to mold what they're thinking to get them to let you hit them. These qualities aren't that uncommon in people in general, nor are they particularly uncommon in people who take a beginning fencing class.

If you have this baseline level of aptitude, it seems to me that a much bigger determining factor in how far you go is how obsessed you are. If you have the basic stuff, it's all about effortful practice, as that Scientific American article "The Expert Mind" found when studying tennis players, chess players, etc. More important than what you start with is what you add in practice. So while I disagree with Allen in that how go-getter you are before a tournament is particularly important, being self-motivated and manaical about practicing *is* important. Relatively few people want it badly enough to go through hell to get there.

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by eac

There are exceptions to this, namely me. Almost every significant high-watermark result for me has come when I was completely sure that I was going to do terribly, and was resigned to this fact. And, almost every significantly bad tournament (relative to my skill at the time) has come when I was eager to go and kick some a$$.

And:

Originally Posted by eac

So while I disagree with Allen in that how go-getter you are before a tournament is particularly important, being self-motivated and manaical about practicing *is* important.

I'm never one to argue with individual success stories.

I do want to clarify that my example isn't illustrative of someone who is out to "kick some ass" at the event, but who looks forward to the experiance of the competition itself, regardless of the anticipated outcome.

Durando said it better: my most successful fencers (ie, consistantly in National Points in their weapons) have always been the ones who have looked forward to being on the strip, even when they knew they were in a competition that was over their head, or they were not always fencing very successfully that day.

Allen