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journalmom · 12-11-2006, 12:26 AM

We recently went to an OPEN where there were more than three twelve year olds fencing. Two received new ratings that day. I thought the OPEN tournaments were restricted to over 13 years old. Why to organizers ignore the rule and give these ratings. AND even if they didn't catch it, shouldn't USFA catch it and NOT issue the new rating? It's really annoying when older people have to fence these young kids who actually might get hurt just because of the size difference....then, they somehow squeek by and get new letters at the end! I know someone who purposely went to a tournament two hours away from her house, knowing that the organizer won't make a fuss about the age and brought her son. He received a new letter that day.

I know I shouldn't get worked up about things like this but if one pereson follows the rule, should everyone?

I'm so glad USFA decided to ask for proof of age at certain tournaments now.

fencerwallet · 12-11-2006, 12:35 AM

Yup, at age 12 they would need to be on the Junior NRPS list to be able to fence in Opens. Otherwise any rating earned is invalid, and I believe that anyone else's rating earned might also be in jeopardy since the violation makes that tournament an unsanctioned event. As far as proof of age, it seems you knew they were 12, so it wasn't a case of their hiding it as much as organizers not knowing (or ignoring) the rules.

journalmom · 12-11-2006, 12:43 AM

The "Mom" told me that Ask Fred took the registration so she assumed it was OK. The organizer was at fault in this case I guess. I know they are trying to attract more fencers but it is jeopardizing the ratings earned by other fencers, like you said.

Supermom · 12-11-2006, 08:02 AM

My son did his first opens at 12 - because his birthday falls near the end of the year, and he would turn 13 before Jan. 1. Actual age at the time of the competition is not what counts, it's birth year... maybe some of the 12 year olds were in that category.

journalmom · 12-11-2006, 08:59 AM

Nope. The birth year was definitely 12. I know when those kids were born because I know them peresonally. That made it harder for me to accept the fact that they were breaking the rules. I mean, the parents were....

4qtrs · 12-11-2006, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by journalmom

That made it harder for me to accept the fact that they were breaking the rules. I mean, the parents were....

That is a tough one! I am a little surprised about Fred though. Have you thought about sending in a trouble ticket email on that to Peet? I would think that would be a 'feature' that needed to be fixed.

foildad · 12-11-2006, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4qtrs

That is a tough one! I am a little surprised about Fred though. Have you thought about sending in a trouble ticket email on that to Peet? I would think that would be a 'feature' that needed to be fixed.

Askfred has an "Enforce rating in preregistration" feature that can be toggled on or off by the event organizer. The organizer makes a choice whether or not they intend to follow the rules.

oso97 · 12-11-2006, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foildad

Askfred has an "Enforce rating in preregistration" feature that can be toggled on or off by the event organizer. The organizer makes a choice whether or not they intend to follow the rules.

Yea, don't blame Peet because the rules weren't followed.

But do send a message to the Division, and follow up with the National Office.

MyrddinsPrecint · 12-11-2006, 10:13 AM

I agree that rules should be followed uniformly on this one, that either everyone should be following it, or everyone shouldn't be.

I just think it's kind of a bizarre rule, mostly based on the fact that there have, in the past, been 12 year olds who were taller than me, and I'm not the shortest member of my college fencing team--- There's a girl on my team who comfortably fits into my old knickers-- y'know, the ones that I wore when I was 13/14 ish.

I think that parents teaching their kids that cheating is okay is fundamentally irrational.

I also think that the rule fails to take reality into account a lot of the time.....

oiuyt · 12-11-2006, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oso97

Yea, don't blame Peet because the rules weren't followed.

But do send a message to the Division, and follow up with the National Office.

That said, Peet should set FRED's default behavior to enforcing the rules and let organizers deselect that button for non-sanctioned events....

-B

MyrddinsPrecint · 12-11-2006, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oiuyt

That said, Peet should set FRED's default behavior to enforcing the rules and let organizers deselect that button for non-sanctioned events....

-B

How does this option affect the 12 year olds with points that allow them to fence the events?

4qtrs · 12-11-2006, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oiuyt

That said, Peet should set FRED's default behavior to enforcing the rules and let organizers deselect that button for non-sanctioned events....

-B

I agree, I think that exception handling (such as 12yr olds with points) can be handled by the organizer. However, if the National chooses to audit tournaments that are being setup on Fred I would think they would want that limitation in place.

Justifiying the exception is always easier.

foildad · 12-11-2006, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

How does this option affect the 12 year olds with points that allow them to fence the events?

Good question. To find the answer, I just tried entering a Y12 into a senior tournament to see what would happen. As expected, ASKFRED wouldn't take the preregistration. Then I logged on as bout committee to see if I would be told that an underage fencer had tried to register. I was not told so.

If I knew of a underage but point eligible fencer who wanted to enter an event I could override the system to put them in, but it appears that the system doesn't alert me to their attempt.

Edit: What I tried to do wasn't exactly what you are asking about. I don't have any Y14 events set up right now to test, so I used a senior event instead. I assume that the outcome would be the same.

DJ Apostrophe · 12-11-2006, 01:48 PM

Whenever someone is denied registration due to a restriction, it tells them why. It does not tell the organizer.

The person who was denied registration can then send an email to the organizers and be entered by them. (Handy checkbox marked "Override preregistration restrictions.")

The number of people (Y-12 fencers who want to fence in a senior event and have junior points) who this effects is so small as to almost be non-existant, that this is certainly sufficient functionality.

Anyone who has been in the game long enough to have Junior points before they turn 13 is likely going to know about this exception (or the parents will).

As an organizer, I do not want to be notified every time someone is denied registration, as I'm sure most of the time it is a mis-click (men's epee vs. women's epee, for example).

As Peet doesn't have access to points list data without manually loading it in after every update, functionality based on these lists is way too much effort for the reward.

-w

mrbiggs · 12-11-2006, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

How does this option affect the 12 year olds with points that allow them to fence the events?

I count one left. She can probably be dealt with on an individual basis.

foildad · 12-11-2006, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

I count one left. She can probably be dealt with on an individual basis.

More commonly, there will be Y10s who have Y12 points and are therefore point qualified for Y14, and Y12s who have Y14 points and are therefore point qualified for cadet. Still, these can be easily handled on an individual basis, especially since the fencers in this circumstance most certainly know the eligibilty ropes.

MyrddinsPrecint · 12-11-2006, 05:13 PM

Yeah, I figured there aren't so many people who need the exception-- I mostly wondered if the override feature works. And I would imagine that any 12 year old who can fence in senior events would know to just email the organizer.

But might it make sense for the Y14s and such to mention this bit in the description? There seem to me to be more and more opportunities for kids to get Youth points, and more Youth specific tournaments.... And I'm aware of more young people who are fencing really well. This might just be my perspective, but there is always the chance it will be more of a problem in the future than it is now, and was wondering about funtionality in that eventuality.

KD5MDK · 12-11-2006, 07:08 PM

On the other hand, there aren't that many Cadet events locally in my experience.

journalmom · 12-12-2006, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foildad

More commonly, there will be Y10s who have Y12 points and are therefore point qualified for Y14, and Y12s who have Y14 points and are therefore point qualified for cadet. Still, these can be easily handled on an individual basis, especially since the fencers in this circumstance most certainly know the eligibilty ropes.

I agree wholeheartedly with you that when the kids are legitimately qualified to enter a tournament due to points, then, of course, they should be allowed to fence. But when the parents sneak them in, despite the fact that they know that their kids don't qualify, that really gets me. I think someone mentioned about "what are we trying to teach our kids???" and really, who wants to fence? the kids or the parents? If those kids who decided not to fence because of their age but found out their friends were allowed to (and got a letter to boot!), then the honest ones will start to find ways to cheat. Then, it snow balls. Know what I mean? The kids are still so young at this age and they may start thinking about cheating? OY!

The parents should really thinking about what fencing is all about for their kids. Do they want it that badly enough to cheat???

And...on another matter but similar topic. I'm so glad USFA decided to require legal proof of age at some of the events now.

fencerwallet · 12-12-2006, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by journalmom

If those kids who decided not to fence because of their age but found out their friends were allowed to (and got a letter to boot!),

What I find interesting is that these otherwise ineligible, underage kids were better than the field at these tournaments in order to "earn" their soon-to-be stripped-away ratings. Tells you something about "Opens" and the need for a change in the rating system. My son earned all his ratings increases at National tournaments. He was looking at results over the weekend, and commented, "I hate Opens", because this time of year some very average fencers earn ratings increases. And the, "six guys show up and you earn a rating" classification level is kinda silly.