Body cord question (sabre)

[Hollywood Troy]

Hey-
If this was already brought up, my search function doesn't work.

I broke the sabre end clip off my body cord at my last tournament. I screwed the end off and reattached the wires to the posts. Here's my question: There wasn't any designation as to which wire went to to which post. As far as I can tell, they are both going to the sabre and it wouldn't matter since they'll both complete the circut. At the same time, I think if it didn't matter then there would be no reason to have two different size plugs (I have a two pin, not bayonet). Can anyone tell me if it matters in sabre? I guess I'll find out the next time I plug in, but I'd like to know before hand.

If you wonder why I would be so concerned with flipping two wires, keep in mind I have an audio background. It's really bad to accidently flip two wires.

[Purple Fencer]

In sabre it probably doesn't matter, but then again, I've fenced all three weapons and use teh same cords for foil and sabre, so for me it DID make a differance.

On the chance you need to loan your cords to a foil fencer, check it this way.

Get an ohmmeter or somethign else to check continuity.

Find teh wire that is connected to the center pin on the reel end of the cord...that's the B line and should go to the narrower of teh pins on the weapon end. The C pin (the thinker one) should go to the pin at the reel-end that is farther away from teh center one.

[Beowulfman6]

In saber the socket itself grounds out the two wires, so I see no reason why it maters for saber, at least if the cord will not be used for foil anyway.

There may be some reason that I'm not aware of, there aren't any real saber fencers at my club, so I never do much saber armory.

If you want to make sure you get it right heres how:

There are 3 lines, A, B, and C. B and C go to the saber end- A to the lame. So if you look at the 3-prong end, the pin that is farther away from the others is the C line, the one in the middle is the B, and the one on the other side is the A. The B line should go to the skinny pin in a 2-prong plug.



Hope this helps.

[oiuyt]

Won't matter until you get to a tournament where they test cords. Then you have a 50% chance of your cord failing and needing to do quick repairs.

If the cord is used in a foil there's a 50% chance it won't work correctly.

Other than that you're fine.

I'd fix it now and not worry about it.

-B

[fencerwallet]

If it is in the wrong configuration it likely won't pass at a tournament. I've had to bring along a tool kit and move them around to the proper plugs to get previously repaired cords to pass the armorer.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Won't matter until you get to a tournament where they test cords. Then you have a 50% chance of your cord failing and needing to do quick repairs.

If the cord is used in a foil there's a 50% chance it won't work correctly.

Other than that you're fine.

I'd fix it now and not worry about it.

-B

It makes little difference for Sabre, as several have said.

Why do the armorers fail them at NACs? Because of the possibility that you may lend it to a foil fencer.

[larkmaj]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

It makes little difference for Sabre, as several have said.

Why do the armorers fail them at NACs? Because of the possibility that you may lend it to a foil fencer.

I believe it shouldn't be failed at NACs. Just because the cord doesn't follow convention doesn't mean it breaks the rules, in fact, it doesn't break the rules. It probably would be failed because the testing equipment used assumes everything follows convention. With 2-prongs especially, a foil, let alone sabre, could work just as well with the lines reversed. Of course, the socket would have to be adjusted accordingly.

I guess this is kind of similar to an argument I made when I took the ref seminar and was told that if the fencer presented on strip and there was no security device to keep the bodycord in the weapon to treat it as if the weapon failed inspection. My argument here is that it is not a flaw in the weapon. The security device could be part of the bodycord, or it could be a rubberband or garter belt or anything. So if there is no security device I would simply instruct them to get one, which they would need to do anyway.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by larkmaj

I believe it shouldn't be failed at NACs. Just because the cord doesn't follow convention doesn't mean it breaks the rules, in fact, it doesn't break the rules. It probably would be failed because the testing equipment used assumes everything follows convention. Especially on a 2-prong, even a foil could work just as well with the lines reversed. Of course, the socket would have to be adjusted accordingly.

Actually, if I put a 2 pin cord into a test rig and the cords are reversed, both the B and C lines will show failures....thus, the cord will fail. The right wire must be to the correct pin....period....regardless of foil or sabre use.

[fencerwallet]

The armorers do a great job and give up alot of their time to be at tournaments. But they will fail it. That's what they do. At the NAC "B", another parent in conversation told me, "get ready to buy a new glove. This weekend, they are failing gloves". My son had a new glove that he used all of two (2) times, but sure enough, the next day at weapons check, they failed it and he had to buy a new one.

[larkmaj]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

Actually, if I put a 2 pin cord into a test rig and the cords are reversed, both the B and C lines will show failures....thus, the cord will fail. The right wire must be to the correct pin....period....regardless of foil or sabre use.

That's what I mean by the testing equipment assuming everything follows convention. I'm saying the bodycord follows all the rules regardless of foil or sabre and therefore has no grounds on which to be failed. If I give you a japanese wire and you don't have a japanese socket on your rig to test it does it fail? Of course not.

Originally Posted by fencerwallet

The armorers do a great job and give up alot of their time to be at tournaments. But they will fail it. That's what they do.

I'm not trying to argue that it won't be failed, but there really is no grounds to fail it if it was argued.

[mrbiggs]

Actually I agree with larkmaj. The inability to test a cord does not mean that it fails.

It's the same as making up your own style of connection, which is perfectly legal. In this case, the fencer "invented" a form of two prong in which the B line is larger than the C line. It's going to conform to all the rules that a normal body cord would, so it should be fine.

[SJCFU#2]

But reversing the wires does violate the rules - saber fencers "must use the bodycords specified for foil" (m.35) and connection between the the center pin at the three-prong end and the wire in the weapon is specified for foil (m.29).

edit: If you were to make up a new socket for your foil where the larger pin was insulated and connected to the wire, and the smaller pin grounded to the socket, then you might be able to argue that it was identical to a foil body cord, but be prepared to show the foil.

BTW, polarity DID make a difference back in the early days of electric saber -it only became immaterial when captuers went away.

[oiuyt]

I agree with larkmaj. It will fail armory control, but shouldn't.

I've had a negrini bayonet cord initially failed at a NAC because the armorer couldn't test it (a brief complaint quickly got a more experienced armorer with more complete testing equipment and the cords passed).

I don't recall a rule specifying that the B-line on a 2-prong cord must be the thin pin. Certainly a flipped 2-prong cord passes all of the various other rules that govern cords.

Originally Posted by 2006 USFA rulebook

m.35 The fencer must use the bodycord specified for foil, plugged into the guard plug by means of any system which conforms with the conditions for manufacture and assembly laid down in Articles m.5, m.29 and m.55.

Originally Posted by 2006 USFA rulebook

m.29 The conductive wires of the bodycord (the fencers’ personal equipment) must be well insulated electrically from each other, twisted or joined together, and not affected by humidity. This bodycord has a connecting plug at each end. The electrical resistance of each of these conductive wires (plug to plug and plug to crocodile clip) must not exceed 1 ohm.
At the reel end the three-pin male plug, which must comply with the conditions of manufacture and assembly laid down in Article m.55, will be attached to the wires in the following manner:
— the pin at 15 mm from the center pin to the conductive jacket;
— the central pin to the wire in the weapon;
— the pin at 20 mm from the center pin to the foil ground circuit or the conductive strip.
The wire which joins the rear connection of the bodycord to the conductive jacket by a crocodile clip must be separate for at least 40 cm. This wire must be soldered to the crocodile clip and this soldering must not be covered by any insulation or any material whatsoever. However, any method of fixing which presents the same guarantees as soldering may be used, provided it has been accepted by the SEMI Committee.
The crocodile clip must be robust and ensure perfect contact with the conductive jacket. Its width at the point of contact must be at least 10 mm; the inside of the clip must leave a free space at least 8 mm long by 3 mm high. It must be clipped onto the back of the conductive jacket on the sword-arm side.
At the end nearest the foil, inside the guard, any method of attachment is allowed but the method adopted must always conform to the specification laid down in Article m.5.
In addition, the pins of the plug must in no circumstances be able to touch the metal part of the guard.
The wire from the point will be protected by an insulated sheath from the place where it enters the guard right up to the insulated connection on the plug socket. Under no circumstances may the non-insulated wire extend beyond this insulated plug connection (cf. m.5, m.9).

A flipped 2-prong fits that desription, as long as the socket is also flipped (thin pin goes to ground/bell, thick pin goes to wire).

I might intentionally bring a flipped cord to Columbus and cause problems...

Then again, messing with armorers just for kicks isn't a particularly bright move for an athlete, so I probably won't. :)

-B

[larkmaj]

Originally Posted by SJCFU#2

But reversing the wires does violate the rules - saber fencers "must use the bodycords specified for foil" (m.35) and connection between the the center pin at the three-prong end and the wire in the weapon is specified for foil (m.29).

I still fail to see how this will make it violate the rules. I stated earlier:

Originally Posted by larkmaj

With 2-prongs especially, a foil, let alone sabre, could work just as well with the lines reversed. Of course, the socket would have to be adjusted accordingly.

and this alteration is very simple, you just insulate one pin instead of the other and attach the wire to that. There is absolutely nothing in the rules that says the big pin must be the C-line on a 2 prong connector, it is only convention that dictates this.

[SJCFU#2]

Originally Posted by larkmaj

I still fail to see how this will make it violate the rules. I stated earlier:and this alteration is very simple, you just insulate one pin instead of the other and attach the wire to that. There is absolutely nothing in the rules that says the big pin must be the C-line on a 2 prong connector, it is only convention that dictates this.

Look at the second paragraph of the posting (the one that was added about two hours ago and within minutes of the original posting)!

[larkmaj]

Originally Posted by SJCFU#2

Look at the second paragraph of the posting (the one that was added about two hours ago and within minutes of the original posting)!

I did see that, and I fail to see why you need to be prepared to show the foil.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by larkmaj

I did see that, and I fail to see why you need to be prepared to show the foil.

Very simple, you must prove it follows rule 29. Specifically, the central pin to the wire of the weapon. If the body cord has a standard 2 prong and the wires are reversed, you must prove that the weapons you are using have the wire going to the opposite of normal.

Since a Sabre bodycord must follow Foil rules, if they reverse it they must also show a Foil that is set up that way.

[larkmaj]

If you want to be that nitpicky on the rules then m.5 must also be followed. The final point of subsection 3 states "It must not include any part which allows electrical contact to be made between the plug sockets". This could be interpreted that all sabres fail, or that the sabres where the insulation between the B line and the socket has been removed do.

Another thing. You have to give an example of a foil that the bodycord applies to? Just because it can be used in a foil isn't good enough?

[DHCJr]

Larkmaj your first paragraph shows one of the ways the rules are not written well. You could also say the same thing about Epee and Foil, since the wires you connect bring the plug sockets together through the tip. Maybe that rule should be made clearer.

I do not understand your second paragraph. Are you agreeing with me or what?