Epee thumb or hand position

[jamaya]

What position should the thumb be in a good epee engarde? Should it be at 12 or 2 o'clock? If it is at 2 o'clock I think you can more easily beat the blade with the forefinger and thumb, but I was taught it should be at 12.

What is the best position for the hand to execute different arm hits? To hit under the bell guard is it easier with the palm up or down? To hit on the sides it might be easier for the thumb to be at 12, but I like to have it at 2.

[Durando]

Generally, if the thumb is at 12 o'clock there is a tendency to let the hand wander too far toward the middle of the line. It is exactly as you said as regards hits to the arm. Most of the time it should be at 2 o'clock.

[eac]

It seems key to know whether you're left- or right-handed.

[larkmaj]

Originally Posted by eac

It seems key to know whether you're left- or right-handed.

Even more so is french or pistol? Post or not?

[Beowulfman6]

I suppose I come on guard at bout 2 o'clock (10 for a leftie), I was tought that this was better and it feels more natural to me (seems to offer better protection to).

[tehcow]

I have been taught a thumb position which I guess is close to 2 o'clock. However for beats I rotate my wrist and my thumb is closer to 11 at contacting the blade (assuming a quarte beat). I don't think you want to bend the wrist but instead the force of the beat is from the sharp change in momentum as you squeeze your hand and stop the rotation on contact.

Hitting under the guard I keep my thumb in the same position as my en garde. To hit on the right hand side of the arm your thumb needs to be supinated. The left side thumb pronation is often helpful. However thumb position is not the only important aspect. To hit different targets you also need to create the correct angle with your arm and wrist. Now I'm no coach and I don't think I could accurately explain it in words, if you have a coach you need to be asking them about it. If you don't and can't get one try asking more experienced epeeists. Hope that helped you. Remember just because I or anyone else says something doesn't mean it's accurately correct.

[graymalkin]

I don't think I understand at all what the problem is.

When you all are describing the position of your thumbs, where is your wrist in all this? That is, are you asking where the thumb should be assuming that the wrist is halfway between pronating and supinating the hand, or are we assuming that the wrist is following the thumb?

Also, I'm assuming that you're using a pistol grip. If you're using a French/Italian, there aren't as many options for thumb position.

But regardless of whether or not your wrist is remaining motionless, I've always had the most success with my thumb at 12 o'clock. It was what I was taught using a pistol, and I've even had a fair bit of success with it when using a French. From that position, it's easy to change one's hand position to attack any line.

[Sciurus-Rex]

A small part of the problem newbies seem to have with the conception of hand position is that they expect the top surface of the blade to run parallel with the floor; canting it slightly off the 12 o'clock position, with all the associated adaptations for parries and attack angles, requires consistent reinforcement until it feels "natural."

[jamaya]

To answer the above questions:

I am right-handed and am using a pistol grip

What my wrist is doing:

For beats I try to keep my wrist still, for right and left-side arm hits you can assume the wrist will bend to get the angle to hit and follow the thumb position at the beginning of the action.

Hope that clears things up. My coach says 12, but I like it at 2 and it seems others agree, so I may have to just do it my way.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by jamaya

My coach says 12, but I like it at 2 and it seems others agree, so I may have to just do it my way.

Yes, never never defer to your coach...

[graymalkin]

Originally Posted by HDG

Yes, never never defer to your coach...

I agree that much of the time one should unequivocably defer to one's coach (no, this isn't sarcasm. there's a reason they're the coach and you're the student). However, in this matter it appears that, provided that one can perform all the necessary blade actions, one's own preference should be the deciding factor.

Nevertheless, if you possibly can, just do what your coach says. In the end, you'll be glad you did.

[samh]

I've been told by a lot of people that anything between 12 and 2 is just fine. Whatever you find comfortable within that range is probably going to work for you.

[Tomas N]

Originally Posted by graymalkin

When you all are describing the position of your thumbs, where is your wrist in all this? That is, are you asking where the thumb should be assuming that the wrist is halfway between pronating and supinating the hand, or are we assuming that the wrist is following the thumb?

I'm trying to figure out how I can change the position of my thumb without changing the position of my wrist without some major surgery to add another joint. I believe everyone is assuming the wrist moves with the thumb.

Tomas

[Tomas N]

Originally Posted by jamaya

What is the best position for the hand to execute different arm hits? To hit under the bell guard is it easier with the palm up or down? To hit on the sides it might be easier for the thumb to be at 12, but I like to have it at 2.

Most generally, it depends on what you're planning on doing after you attempt to hit the arm, but if you're just trying to hit the arm, I was taught that the thumb is at 2 for the side and top, at 3 for underneath, and at 9 for the outside, assuming you are a righty fencing a righty. I'm also assuming that your blade is canted down and to the left. Having your thumb at 2 will direct the point down the arm and if you miss the wrist, you will then be able to hit deeper.

Tomas

[garyhayenga]

Originally Posted by jamaya

To answer the above questions:

I am right-handed and am using a pistol grip

What my wrist is doing:

For beats I try to keep my wrist still, for right and left-side arm hits you can assume the wrist will bend to get the angle to hit and follow the thumb position at the beginning of the action.

Hope that clears things up. My coach says 12, but I like it at 2 and it seems others agree, so I may have to just do it my way.

Presumably your coach is teaching you a style where the predominant actions are better executed with your thumb at the 12 o'clock position.

So if you just decide to do 2 o'clock on your own then you will defeating the purpose of the style your coach is teaching you.

Since fencers can be equally effective at both en garde positions, you had best do what your coach tells you, or convince him to teach you a different style.

gary hayenga

[graymalkin]

Originally Posted by Tomas N

I'm trying to figure out how I can change the position of my thumb without changing the position of my wrist without some major surgery to add another joint. I believe everyone is assuming the wrist moves with the thumb.

Tomas

What strange joints have you if you can't move your thumb to 2 o'clock without moving your wrist there. I certainly can, and i think it's the case with most people.

No need to be acidic about it. Cheers!

[tehcow]

Originally Posted by graymalkin

What strange joints have you if you can't move your thumb to 2 o'clock without moving your wrist there. I certainly can, and i think it's the case with most people.

No need to be acidic about it. Cheers!

? How can you possibly rotate your thumb in a circular manner with your wrist not moving? Mine just goes left and right. How can your wrist even go to any o'clock? the wrist just turns with the hand. Unless you are meaning the forearm?