New Toys and Gear at the Richmond NAC.

[CvilleFencer]

So some cool new stuff has come out for fencing that I got to play with this weekend. I thought I would talk a bit about it and see what everyone else thought. While I suppose one could argue this is more in line with the armoury, I figure some less technically minded folks would like to hear/talk about this as well.

First of all, gotta say I loved the floor layout for this NAC. Having the vendors in the concourse area outside the halls gave so much more room for vendors to spread out and the event to look very professional and uncrowded. Wherever possible I hope this continues to be a trend. Plenty of room to move around inside the actual event hall and stow gear, lots of space for the armourers and good distance between the pods. Outside all the vendors were easy to reach and had plenty of room to spread out all their gear. Nice. Okay, onto the toys:

Absolute:

FIE Kit:
Absolute brought out their new line of FIE uniforms and I have to say they look very nice! They are fairly thin and look very breathable. They did not have anything in my size but I was impressed by what I was looking at. The stitching was clean and appeared robust, the fittings and furniture (zippers, loops and elastic and Velcro) seem to be as good as what Uhlmann is putting out nowadays. The material itself has a nice weave to it and I think it would be very comfortable to wear and resist pilling and such. I will have to try it out and right a review for that section later.

FIE Masks:
The new masks look nice. They are lightweight, well padded and I did not notice any defects in the mesh of the ones I looked at. The saber mask was particularly interesting as the bib is made out of the same material (I call it T-shirt lame material cause that is what it reminds me off) as their new lightweight lames. This should mean that it is less prone to dead spots from broken/snagged threads and that it should be easier to rinse off and clean.

Saber Gloves:
Pretty much the same innovation as the masks. The standard range of AF gloves, but with the lame material made out of the lightweight fabric and at a pretty good price. AF builds a good glove if you like the fit and the fact that the all in one manchette/glove is now washable seems a good thing for saber fencers who generally need to wash more often to begin with...

Sex Toy Grips:
Okay, almost certainly not their official name! However, it works pretty well... These are French grips but they are built more for those with larger hands or that pommel. They are a sturdy metal base that is then covered with a thick clear plastic (sort of like clear surgical tubbing) and then have a white "gel" coating put on over them. Thicker and easier to wrap your hands around than a normal grip and provide more support around the back near the pommel than most tradition French grips, yet not as thick as the LP Carbon Fiber grips.

The down sides? They seem a little short. I would add some washers before putting the pommel on. They also are not super well finished. As I understand they are made in small batches by someone but while not the carbon copy look of mass produced grips, they were all comfortable, even if they might require a bit of trimming with an exacto knife to get a really flush fit to the pommel. Last down side is self evident, they look like a sex toy...

TCA:
I continue to be impressed by the new owners. They have revamped all their patterns for their lames and kit and seem committed to bringing new life and innovation to the TCA line. With proper patterning for most people their lames go back to being a good (and American) option. They are also producing some newish style gloves and body cords under their "About fencing" house brand. The cords are a little thick and clunky for me (I use modified 3 prong LP's on all my weapons), but a friend bought a couple so I will hold off judgment till I see how they hold up. The real news however is their new FIE kit:

FIE Uniforms:
I was really impressed with the cut and texture of the new FIE uniforms that TCA had out on display. Very thin, lightweight kit with a full Transpor type moisture wicking liner. The material seems very robust with a very dense weave but was still thin and seemed breathable. While the final finishing and details were not quite as good as LP, I liked it better than the current run of Uhlmann/Allstar and would consider it equal to Negrini or PBT. They are still using a Velcro flap for the zippers, but I was told that one just needed to request buttons instead and they could make it happen.

They tell me that they will have both a 1000 newton (four ply IIRC) and a standard 800n set (2 or 3 ply, I can't remember) kit, although they will both be labeled FIE 800n since that is the highest standard that the FIE certifies. If you are looking for a light weight kit with very his resistance, you should check out the TCA kit.

Also they have "racing stripes" similiar to the Duelist uniforms. They can make the stripes in most any color. This could be nice for teams or someone who wants to add a little flair to their spiffy FIE kit. I am firmly convinced that the reason that the Duelist uniforms are as popular as they are is that the stripes made them look like something new and different in a see of white plainness. Of course for those that prefer it (Inq mainly) they can do plain white as well.

The downside is that they are right up there in LP Sydney territory as far as cost. I would not go so far to say they are at LP standards yet, but they are pretty close, are US based and offer spiffy touches and an ease of customization that LP does not. From the set I looked at today, I would probably go with these over anything on the market other than LP. A few years ago you could not have convinced me I would ever say that about TCA kit...

Grips:
In addition to the almost bewildering variety of grips they have offered in the past, they had out a full line of Zivkivic grips, both insulated and bare. This would seem to make the TCA stand a one stop shop for people who really want to have something other than the standard (or standard size) Belgian and Visconti grips.

So those were the things that really caught my eye. I was a bit busy with fencers and other odds and ends so I did not spend as much time browsing as I would have liked. As such I am sure there are things I missed. Feel free to bring them up here!

[Captain Hook]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Sex Toy Grips:
Okay, almost certainly not their official name!

why did you have to get my hopes up like that?

[Gav]

Originally Posted by cvillefencer

Grips: etc

I'm not criticising you Cville' but it never ceases to amaze me how obssessed with exotic grip designs american fencers appear to be!

And now we have "sex toy" grips...(oo-er)

Whilst I think that innovation should be encouraged there is an all-too [imo] unhealthy obsession with this sort of thing rather than just getting on with fencing.

Or perhaps this is just an artefact of this discussion forum?

[JEC]

PBT had an interesting electronic toy. It attachs to the wrist and makes several types of sounds that were supposed to be cues for attacks. It was part of a Tyshler DVD. As I have a Target Speed, I couldn't justify to my wife the $100.

Swordmasters also had an interesting gadget. A piece of machined steel to fix and contain the tip of an epee or foil and be able to change the screws.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by Gav

I'm not criticising you Cville' but it never ceases to amaze me how obssessed with exotic grip designs american fencers appear to be!

I here ya Gav. I am just reporting on this one... As you may have noticed from some of my earlier posts I am a pretty big fan of using a "normal" Belgian or Visconti sized to fit your hand. However, these caught my eye as they have some tangible advantages for the pommeler over most of the standard French grips out there and seem like they would be super durable.

I am not sure why so many US fencers are so into alternative grip choices. I guess depending on how generous/polite you want to be you could lump it up into 4 categories:

1. Because the US is such an Uber welcoming melting pot of cultures and ethnicities and because we have so many people from all classes in the sport, varieties in size and build of fencers necessitate a wide range of grip choices.

2. American coaches have moved more into teaching speed and "modern" gamesmanship and have moved away from teaching the benefits of tradition grip choices and how to use the fingers in manipulating the blade.

3. Americans are so obsessed with the "cult of me" or "I have to be different" mindsets that they think that some sort of cool, quirky grip will help them find the "trick" to fencing.

4. Americans are lazy wimps and can't stick with a proper grip long enough to learn how to use it and strengthen their hands to the point that it is no longer uncomfortable.

I can see justification in a very broad stereotype sense for all four. I guess pick which one suites ones prejudices and accept that it is what it is...

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by JEC

PBT had an interesting electronic toy. It attachs to the wrist and makes several types of sounds that were supposed to be cues for attacks. It was part of a Tyshler DVD. As I have a Target Speed, I couldn't justify to my wife the $100.

Swordmasters also had an interesting gadget. A piece of machined steel to fix and contain the tip of an epee or foil and be able to change the screws.

I have seen/heard of both of these before. A friend of mine trains at Tyshler's salle and had told me a bit about the DVD/test box toy. I think it could be cool depending on what your training situation is. If you don't have a coach or don't really get to practice at a club it could be cool, but if you take regular lessons or training I think that unless they matched up very well you might end up training at odds with yourself on some things.

Where was Swordmasters set up? I did not see them at all or I would have come by to check them out and chat for a bit. I am sorry to have missed them and I don't know quite how I did that...

[Mike O]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Sex Toy Grips:
Okay, almost certainly not their official name! However, it works pretty well... These are French grips but they are built more for those with larger hands or that pommel. They are a sturdy metal base that is then covered with a thick clear plastic (sort of like clear surgical tubbing) and then have a white "gel" coating put on over them. Thicker and easier to wrap your hands around than a normal grip and provide more support around the back near the pommel than most tradition French grips, yet not as thick as the LP Carbon Fiber grips.

The down sides? They seem a little short. I would add some washers before putting the pommel on. They also are not super well finished. As I understand they are made in small batches by someone but while not the carbon copy look of mass produced grips, they were all comfortable, even if they might require a bit of trimming with an exacto knife to get a really flush fit to the pommel. Last down side is self evident, they look like a sex toy...

Fortunately the official name is "Coach Reith's French grip." I like them because, as C'Ville noted they're pretty stout and offer plenty to hold onto for pommelling. I also like that they're squarish in shape along the whole length of the grip - I run my index finger along the side of the grip when I pommel and the squarish shape along the entire length offers a nice feel when I park my finger there. (Most other grips that I've seen/used are squared at the blade end of the french grip, but transition to a round shape near the pommel.) They are slightly shorter than other French grips, but they combine perfectly with the Schermasport 2 piece pommel to come in just under the legal limit. (I've had to cut a little off other grips when combined with the Schermasport pommel to get the combination of the two to a legal length.)

I like that they are made of mostly aluminum with the thin exterior of materials that C'Ville details above. The thick aluminum bends easily and does not deform when the pommel is torqued on tightly. I've had at least one other grip - I think it was a Prieur rubber over aluminum - deform because it was mostly rubber, with only a thin core of aluminum.

The outermost rubber is pretty grippy. However, I still wrap the whole grip and pommel in a thin layer of athletic tape. The Schermasport pommels I use get a little slippery and I prefer just to wrap the whole handle.

They are pretty expensive - around $20 if I recall correctly, but for me they're worth it.

They're also kind've hard to mount. They come with a pretty pronounced curve/bend to the side, so you have to get that same bend in the tang to fit it together. Maybe next time I'll try taking the bend out of the grip and fitting it onto the straight tang.

All those random observations being said, the outer-most layer is an alarmingly flesh-like color. I've gotten a lot of interesting comments from club-mates.

[sabreur]

Originally Posted by Gav

I'm not criticising you Cville' but it never ceases to amaze me how obssessed with exotic grip designs american fencers appear to be!

I'm forced to note that the "carbon fibre tennis racquet" thing is a Leon Paul (hence English) creation...

And I seem to remember a book by an English fencer who went on at great length about customizing your sabre grip...

[JEC]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Where was Swordmasters set up? I did not see them at all or I would have come by to check them out and chat for a bit. I am sorry to have missed them and I don't know quite how I did that...

Inside next to the Armoury check. I think they were the official armourers for hire.

[Coldfire]

Originally Posted by sabreur

And I seem to remember a book by an English fencer who went on at great length about customizing your sabre grip...

Ummm how exactly would one do that? I've never seen a sabre with anything but a normal sabre grip. Is there really anything you could do that would help or is that guy making stuff up? I didnt know that there were different kinds of sabre grips.

[DangerMouse]

Originally Posted by Mike O

Fortunately the official name is "Coach Reith's French grip."

Just to add a little more (I used to fence with "Coach Reith"), the grips are loosely modeled after the schermasport. Reith does his own casting of them and they are a touch shorter than the schermasport grips I've seen, but not by much. I think the left handed are actually closer to the PBT french grips.

As for durability, Reith's club has been using these for years (before he got a mold to cast his own) and I have yet to see one wear out. After 10 years or so of club use, some of them are pretty dirty, which makes them a little slippery, but I think the actually surgical tubing he uses now is different anyway. The clear plastic tubing never wears out.

[piste off]

Originally Posted by Gav

I'm not criticising you Cville' but it never ceases to amaze me how obssessed with exotic grip designs american fencers appear to be!

Yes, because as we know some of the best fencers use very ordinary grips... like Kulczar, Srecki, Mazzoni, Milanoli, and F. Jennett.

Rick

[Peach]

I bought one of the Absolute sabre masks with the lightweight washable material--I like that--but I don't like the cut of the lames made out of that material.

[KD5MDK]

I've seen the Swordmasters' tip retaining tool. It doubles as a 1x2x4 block as well, replacing their previous shorting block design. If you want something to hold your tip in place while you place the screws, it's a neat idea.

[Gav]

How the hell do you get multi-quote to work???

Originally Posted by sabreur

I'm forced to note that the "carbon fibre tennis racquet" thing is a Leon Paul (hence English) creation...

And I seem to remember a book by an English fencer who went on at great length about customizing your sabre grip...

Not sure which book you are on about - must have missed that one. If it's a good book send me the recommendation.

The tennis handle is, in my opinion, not that radical. Ok so it's made out of carbon fibre, fits on an ortho' blade and makes your weapon feel weird (I've tried one out) but it's essentially a fat french grip (sans pommel).

Originally Posted by piste off

Yes, because as we know some of the best fencers use very ordinary grips... like Kulczar, Srecki, Mazzoni, Milanoli, and F. Jennett.

Rick

They are the exceptions... and are exceptional in themselves.

Not sure on Srecki or Kulczar but Milianoli and Jeanet use standard french grips bent into a weird shape - not the weird (to begin with) designs that seem prevalent in some companies.

Not only that but I wonder at what point these guys started using these custom grips. How many years of using standard grips did they have before they decided on modifying their own?

A weird grip, or use of one, doesn't make the fencer any good; being a good dedicated fencer makes the fencer good.

EDIT: And I am only pointing out an observation that I've made from browsing these forums. I've already noted that it might just be something that relates only to the people who use forums (being the uber geeky types we are).

[Craig]

Originally Posted by JEC

PBT had an interesting electronic toy. It attachs to the wrist and makes several types of sounds that were supposed to be cues for attacks. It was part of a Tyshler DVD. As I have a Target Speed, I couldn't justify to my wife the $100.

We've had this for quite some time (showed it at Summer Nationals and a couple of NACs last season):
Tyshler Personal Fencing Trainer

Craig

[piste off]

Originally Posted by Gav

A weird grip, or use of one, doesn't make the fencer any good; being a good dedicated fencer makes the fencer good.

Agree completely.

I do however feel that there is not a good commerically available grip out there for epeeists that like to pommel, which is why I would not knock any attempts at innovation in that area.

Most people that pommel use a standard french grip or some bent version of it. From a design standpoint, this is not optimal.

Standard french grips tend to be thin and round (not flat) at the end closest to the pommel, which really affects how much strength can be applied with the thumb.

You are right - a grip won't change a crappy fencer to a good one... however as we all know one touch can make a difference and I do feel that particularily with pommeling there can be improvements in the current product offerings.

Rick

[bigdawg2121]

Relative to the grip that seems to have started the conversation (Coach Reith's French Grip aka the Sex Toy Grip), they really aren't all that "weird". They're basically french grips with a more sturdy, thicker tubing, that allows for better grip and control while pommeling. If anything the LP Carbon Fibre is much more radical. Coach Reith just took and made a few improvements to what is still recognizably a french grip, he didn't replace it with a tennis racket handle.