Can you fence with no depth perception?

[Karinka]

Good day,

I apologize if this sounds like a stupid question, but please hear me out. I have recently taken up fencing (my son asked me to give it a try...he knows about my eye problem, but said I should at least try. Not wanting to be the "hypocritical mother" who gave him the "at least try speech" so many times throughout his childhood and then do the opposite, I decided to indeed give it a try. I wanted to just do it recreationally, but now want to do it competitively. I have always found ways to compensate with respect to this "disability" whither it be driving or playing golf, etc. (however, in golf....the ball is not moving when you are "attacking it".)

Anyway, I just seem to be struggling A LOT (as I just don't seem to be able to "see" the blade and react appropriately) with this sport despite practices at the club at least 3 times a week plus private lessons. My coach and I are trying to find ways to "compensate", but we are now both getting frustrated, and I'm coming to the realization that this may not be "workable". (I have been doing this now for about 9-10 months...)

Any one else deal with this?

Thank you kindly in advance for any replies,
Karinka
---}--------
Salute!

[jeff]

Yes, you can definitely fence without depth perception or proper binocular vision. I have strabismus, and I know several fencers with one eye, and we've all fenced and competed for many years nonetheless. You compensate in fencing much as you already do elsewhere.

Some actions will be harder than others - I also found it hard to learn how to effectively take the blade. This only comes through practice, and at 9 or 10 months you're still in the early phases of becoming a fencer. The whole subject of distance has to be learned through other clues (eg: relative motion) - just as you do when you drive without depth perception. It may never feel natural, and you may have to concentrate to perceive changes in distance where other people simply perceive it directly, but it can be done.

You don't say which weapon you're learning, but I'll guess that it's foil. Try using exercises building from simple engagement: for example, advance and engage in 6, then lunge or advance lunge to hit, with and without disengage. That will let you practice the feeling of moving to the right distance to make the initial engagement, and your coach can vary his footwork to add difficulty as you develop.

Building on this, you can learn to comfortably do other blade takings starting from that initial engagement: advance and engage in 6; the instructor does a disengage to your line of 4, and you do direct beat or retake in counter-6. Since you're already in engagement distance, you should be able to do this with blade motion alone - your distance is already correct. After you've gotten that working, combine that with advances and retreats that vary the distance. Explicitly pay attention to the other person's foot movement and advance or retreat accordingly.

It can be done. You have to compensate continuously, and it may be a disadvantage you always have to cope with, but that doesn't mean you can't fence well and successfully. Stick with it and let us know how you're doing.

[Chafunkta]

In 9 or 10 months I had problems seeing the blade, and I don't have any known eye malfunctions. It was mostly against fencers I wasn't used to, namely fencers that had a quicker lunge than the other beginners I was fencing with. With experience, I learned how to see the blade (probably better described as "sensing" the blade). Experience is what will help you feel (or see) the blade better.

I don't really know what to tell you, because I can't even begin to pretend what fencing would be like without depth perception. But it seems like you've gotten through challenges before. What makes this one so different?

Good luck,

Chaf

[crquack]

I wil not pretend I have the same disability but I sympathize with poor vision. I wear glasses under the mask with considerable reduction of vision. Furthermore, the glasses fog up, more so in some salles than others. No amount of coating makes this better. On one occasion I had to take my glasses off completely and fenced without them so much of the parrying involved educated guesswork.

I agree that distance judgement is paramount in point weapons (epee and foil). I am forever losing touches in epee by misjudging the distance and flying my point past the other guy, getting stranded there and him hitting me on a riposte.

Others may object to this violently, but here is a suggestion: Have you tried sabre? You can score even if you get too close. Most of the touches I lose in epee would be mine in sabre. You might find the same.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

One of my eyes is farsighted, the other nearsighted--- I can see everything without glasses, but only in one eye (the overlap is about 6 inches worth of real distance)

It took a good 3 or 4 years before I realized that my learned cues on depth perception were not as good as binocularity, and finally getting contacts.

So........ yes. It's more difficult, and obviously, it would be easier with binocularity, but it's just a different skill set.

Work on sentiment de fer--- feeling where the blade is with your blade. This may involve drills where you close your eyes entirely, and figure out where your opponents blade is, and where on the blade you beat.

Also, you're gonna fall short quite a bit--- don't let that mean you never attack, make sure that instead, you have a good idea of what you do after your attack fails. (after your attack fails, you'll have more non-binocular clues as to exactly where your opponent actually is).

At low levels, yes, sabre is easier to still get touches in with no binocularity. On higher levels? it's the exact same problem, and always will be.

[parrythis]

Originally Posted by Karinka

Anyway, I just seem to be struggling A LOT (as I just don't seem to be able to "see" the blade and react appropriately) ...

When you fence, what are you looking at? Even with normal vision it is very difficult to "see" the blade - so much so that when newer fencers tell me this, I suggest that they focus their attention on their opponent's target area or mask. Others may disagree, but I believe that trying to see your opponent's blade is a trap. The blade will invariably get ahead of you and you will never feel like you have any control of the bout.

Try looking at your opponent, not their blade, and try to get a sense - through trial and error - of where their blade is based on the position of their body and weapon arm, but don't look explicitly for their blade. Look at your opponent and react to where you think the blade should be.

Watching your opponent may give you the opportunity to keep an eye on their footwork and help you to judge how close or far they are based on their movements.

Good luck.

[Zasha]

just thought i'd throw in my two cents.

the answer is yes, you can fence. and you might not need to compensate as much as you think. fencing is hard. it's completely different from every other sport. but you can be a competitve fencer with severe eyes problems. i know, i have been for the last seven years.

[DangerMouse]

For what it's worth, there was a blind fencer in the Midwest back when I lived there. She actually did fairly well.

[jrgunn]

First off, the question is far from stupid. It is a reasonable concern. I for one have had no depth perception since I developed amblyopiea when I was 6. For those who haven't experienced this, it means that I see primarily through my dominant eye (for me its my left, convenient as I am also left-handed); while my "lazy" eye slides off to the outside and is ignored by my brain, lest I experience double vision.

When it comes to fencing, I had my work cut out for me. Since no fencers I know have this problem, I've had to work it out on my own.

My first experiments were with board work. If you don't have a touch pad at home, use those at your club and experiment with distance and timing. (I'm going to assume you are foil here). What I mean is do simple touches right next to the pad, then back off to lunge distance for more touches, then to advance lunging distance. Measure these distances with a tape measure; it will give you a quantifiable idea of how far you can reach in an attack.

Second, start getting lessons consistently week to week. That will give you the good technique to practice.

Third, in your bouts, notice whether you are falling short or going long in your attacks and parry/ripostes. If your opponent is significantly larger than you are, its easy to misjudge how far away that target rich environment is and attack short, falling to a long armed counter attack; while a smaller opponent (say, a C rated 12 year old in my case), might be in easy reach, but he's a small target and "feels" farther away, so you might hesitate in attacking, giving him priority.

The upshot: focus on improving your basic skills with lessons, board work, and bouting, learning as you go the "language" of the blade (i.e. "sentiment de fer"), and what to do in response. Learn to "feel" your position on the strip relative to your opponent (a trick I use is to glance at the strip markings; I know how far apart they are, how far I can move with lunge or advance lunge because of my board work experiments, and so by looking at my opponent's feet I know precisely how far away he is from my position and whether my attack stands a chance of landing).

The answer to your question is a definite YES. You can be a great fencer with no depth perception. Just ask all those one-eyed pirates.

[melinchow]

Originally Posted by parrythis

When you fence, what are you looking at? Even with normal vision it is very difficult to "see" the blade - so much so that when newer fencers tell me this, I suggest that they focus their attention on their opponent's target area or mask.

i agree with the above advice. foil is very fast and it's hard for a person with "normal" vision to see the blade. it always has been for me anyway. years ago i started focusing my attention more on my opponents target and weapon arm as well as their feet. don't get discouraged and don't feel like you have to start competing right away. take the time to find out what works for you. have fun and stick with it.

[Karinka]

Thank you all, sincerely, for your prompt and helpful responses.

For those of you who asked...yes...I am starting with foil.

To "Parrythis's" question regarding what I am looking at....I have been looking mostly at the opponent's blade. I am doing this as I have a hard time knowing the distance of my opponent by focusing on him. (With my eye problem, he appears just too far away and I don't notice any movement when he does move in either direction.) Based on the responses here, it appears I will need to use a different focus......

To "jrgunn"...it appears we have a very similar problem. I see only through one eye...unfortunately it is on the opposite side of my weapon arm (I am right handed). My "lazy" eye, too, is completely ignored by the brain. My doctor gave me the name for this (which I don't remember), but indicated it would have happened in my childhood.

I really am grateful for everyone's help. Before this post, I was at the point of resignation as I just couldn't find a way to compensate and the frustration was taking the fun out of the sport.

I have a lesson today and I'm going to take this post to my coach. (He has been having a hard time understanding "what I don't see" so this should be helpful.)

Thanks again everyone...and may all of your touches be on target!!!!

Sincerely,
Karinka
---}-------Salute!

[TexasLady]

I have had no depth perception my entire life. It is probably the reason I was always getting hit in the face when I was on a volleyball team. Anyway, when I fence I compensate by watching my oponent's arm and body as opposed to the blade. If I try to watch the blade I just lose track of it and get bruised. To practice distance and point control I use the tennis ball on the string.
Good luck and keep fencing!

[Sciurus-Rex]

"Doctor, will I be able to fence without depth perception?"
"I can't imagine why not. Yes, I think you'll be able to fence just fine."
"Wow. That's kind of weird. Because I couldn't fence at all before."

[Coldfire]

Originally Posted by Sciurus-Rex

"Doctor, will I be able to fence without depth perception?"
"I can't imagine why not. Yes, I think you'll be able to fence just fine."
"Wow. That's kind of weird. Because I couldn't fence at all before."

I'm sure thats a common exchange

[daveappr]

[quote=jrgunn;509057]First off, the question is far from stupid. It is a reasonable concern. I for one have had no depth perception since I developed amblyopiea when I was 6. For those who haven't experienced this, it means that I see primarily through my dominant eye (for me its my left, convenient as I am also left-handed);

Great response- I have a daughter who fences with the same problem. She also plays basketball. While she has had to put in more time doing additional drills, this is something that can be overcome. The previous posters have all offered different experiences and sound advice.
Good luck to you

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

By now this question has been answered and answered...all great responses. Just to pile on, a fencer from my club years ago was shot with a shotgun in the face. Though he lost an eye, he was one of the better fencers in the club (of course, he never beat ME!).

With regard to watching your opponent's blade, I have always felt that watching the blade is a BAAAAD thing to do. I have always been taught to watch the leading target area in foil...the upper chest to the armed side. This is sort of like in football, where you always watch a ballcarrier's HIPS, because they will try to LOOK you and JUKE you in the wrong direction, but the hips never lie.

As for me, I always fence with my eyes closed anyway. At least that's my excuse.

[dcmdale]

Originally Posted by Karinka

To "Parrythis's" question regarding what I am looking at....I have been looking mostly at the opponent's blade. I am doing this as I have a hard time knowing the distance of my opponent by focusing on him. (With my eye problem, he appears just too far away and I don't notice any movement when he does move in either direction.) Based on the responses here, it appears I will need to use a different focus......

I think most coaches discourage focusing on the blade regardless of depth perception because if you focus on the blade it is quite easy for an opponent to sneak into range without you realizing it. (That said, most newer fencers focus on the blade).

My daughter has a chronic eye infection that causes her to lose sight in one eye for weeks at a time (to the point of wearing a patch), so depth perception is a on / off proposition for her. Distance, therefore, is an ongoing issue for her as well, but hasn't kept her from being competitive.

As mentioned above, there are cues about distance that you may need to watch for, particularly things like blade overlap, arm positions (if you find you are noting an increase in the bend in your arm, you are probably getting closer!), floor distance (which is less dependent on binocular vision than straight ahead vision), etc. You'll probably need to explore what works for you.

Dynamic footwork is probably your friend. Novice to intermediate fencers often emphasize bladework at the expense of footwork and will accept a relatively static distance. If you are initiating changes in distance, you are less likely to get caught at an undesired distance than if you let your opponent control the distance or don't move much at all. Good footwork will also help you recover if you find yourself where you have attacked out of distance or are in closer than you want.

(YMMV on any of this. I certainly defer to real fencers (being only a fencing dad), but I wanted to pass on ideas that I have heard from coaches and observed from the sidelines.)

[Wafath]

It should also be noted that it is common for students to experience plateaus and valleys during your fencing education. Sometimes you simply have to accept that you will get worse before you get better, and keep on doing the drills despite your frustration. It may also be better to work on other things than distance, and come back to it when you are less preoccupied by it.

Also, a different teaching approach may help you. Not every coach can reach every student.

W

[T H U G]

Mah eyes cant do stereopsis
dont need no autopsies
or no biopsies
it means mah eyes dont perceive depth well
sometimes it can be hell
but i gots somethin i need to tell
ah fence like a pro
up high or down low
dont need special treatment, no!
you can be da greatest eva
pullin da leva
dont give up neva
overcome yo barriers
just like da harriers
and no matter how you do
you wont be no foo