Wireless epee

[Chitu Florin]

I am trying to build my own wireless epee, but I can't find any diagrams or anything else. If you know a site or anything else please help. Thanks.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by Chitu Florin

I am trying to build my own wireless epee, but I can't find any diagrams or anything else. If you know a site or anything else please help. Thanks.

Trying to build an epee that doesn't have a wire already, trying to buid an epee that doesn't need a wire, or trying to build a system for wireless epee???

If it's the first, someone can help you, but I dont' think it is....

You're unlikely to find a website for the latter two of those, due to the fact that one of them hasn't been done at all, and the fact that the last time I heard, wireless epee was still in developmental stages, and I would imagine that anyone who was developing wouldn't be interested in publishing enough details so that everyone could recreate it ---- and if they would, it would at the VERY least be until it was reasonably bug free.

(although I imagine anyone who had worked on it would actually prefer to make some small amount of money, rather than hand it out free....)

[BySword]

not too long ago, RITFencing posted a video of demonstration of wireless epee system. You can try searching the forum.

[Franglish_5]

You will probably have to perform a similar system like this: Fencing ---)--------------------- Aeva

[DHCJr]

I wish people would stop using the term wireless as it doesn't exist and has never existed. The correct term is reelless. Because of the FIE rules there is not even a prototype for reelless Foil. For Epee there is a prototype. It requires a full body lame' as well as a change to the Epee tip.

Wireless fencing for all 3 weapons is illegal. See M.45

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

I wish people would stop using the term wireless as it doesn't exist and has never existed. The correct term is reelless. Because of the FIE rules there is not even a prototype for reelless Foil. For Epee there is a prototype. It requires a full body lame' as well as a change to the Epee tip.

Wireless fencing for all 3 weapons is illegal. See M.45

Not true....there IS a version of wireless and reeless fencing for all three weapons.....it;s called fecing "dry"

now if you want the pretty lights...that's another matter!

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

Not true....there IS a version of wireless and reeless fencing for all three weapons.....it;s called fecing "dry"

now if you want the pretty lights...that's another matter!

That's BAAAAD! But, I believe they removed the rules on steam fencing from the FIE rule book 2 or 3 years ago.

[Wink0192]

The good news is that it is not hard to go wireless in epee. A Key Chain Remote can be used as the transmitter and mounted behind the bell guard. The receiver can be modified to flash a light. These can be purchased at many hobbiest electronics suppliers. Use two, on different frequencies, or codes, for a full system.

The bad news is more complex. Any touch, any where, will set off the device. Since your weapon is not "Grounded" to a circuit, there is no way to detect a bell touch. Next, no matter what you do, the signal can be jammed. They are good for practice, but not for events. A device as small as a cell phone can produce enough signal to blank out a touch. Foil is even worse. The lame can be made to carry a coded RF signal, which will score an on target touch. This will work in the lab, but not in a noisy RF environment. Again, no where to ground the weapon. I even looked into using a wireless heart monitor for this, but they are only for controled environments.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by Wink0192

The good news is that it is not hard to go wireless in epee. A Key Chain Remote can be used as the transmitter and mounted behind the bell guard. The receiver can be modified to flash a light. These can be purchased at many hobbiest electronics suppliers. Use two, on different frequencies, or codes, for a full system.

The bad news is more complex. Any touch, any where, will set off the device. Since your weapon is not "Grounded" to a circuit, there is no way to detect a bell touch. Next, no matter what you do, the signal can be jammed. They are good for practice, but not for events. A device as small as a cell phone can produce enough signal to blank out a touch. Foil is even worse. The lame can be made to carry a coded RF signal, which will score an on target touch. This will work in the lab, but not in a noisy RF environment. Again, no where to ground the weapon. I even looked into using a wireless heart monitor for this, but they are only for controled environments.

What about timing? I think the problem with the weapon not being grounded is a big problem. How do you get around M.45?

[Wink0192]

IF you were going to build a two weapon system, the receiver(s) would have to be in a common circuit. Then a timer could start with the first touch and lock out at 45 ms. Or, a latching circuit could stop the action with the first touch, and ignore the 45ms.

There are some training accessories that are little more than a box with a pocket clip, that will beep/flash when a touch is scored. Both fencers can see the indicator and stop fencing. Simple and to the point.

If you really need a timer, a club box and a reel-less overhead system will be less costly and more reliable.

[downunder]

i'm very confused.

m45 for reference:

Authorised designs

m.45. Only electrical apparatus designed with wires connecting the fencers to the central apparatus and registering hits by light signals with auxiliary sound signals are authorised: this expressly excludes apparatus based on wireless waves and those which register sound signals only.

[DHCJr]

downunder, I am confused on what you are confused about. A competition scoring device must use wires to relay the signals.

In Sabre; this is done by all tranference of two-way signals are done with the blade (conductive) and the lame (conductive). This is two-way so that the timing works. When the blade meets the blade or lame' of the opponent both fencers boxes know this has occured and the timer starts.

In traditional Epee, to gain a touch you must hit a non-conductive surface. For reelless fencing with the current rules this can be fixed by making the whole target area conductive (lame'), remove the piste.

One of the reasons there is a push to get rid of off-target for Foil is so reelless fencing is possible.

With reelless Sabre fencing you will see lights on the table. These are supposed to be only for the audience. The referee is supposed to ignore these lights and use only the lights in the masks. If the masks light does not go on, then no touch even if the lights on the tower go on. If the light on the tower does not go on, but the mask light does then there is a touch.

Doesn't that make it clearer to the audience?

[downunder]

I understand what you are talking about... I'm an international referee, i've seen it in action.

I don't understand what he is talking about.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Perhaps here's where the breakdown is:

It's quite easy to design a reelless system where the fencers themselves know if their tip depressed-- most easily, adding a clip to a test box. You can create more complicated variations on this easily.

It's much more difficult (and perhaps not worth it) to create a reelless system that has the bell NOT set off the buzz/light/what have you.

Only the former is needed for training senarios, although obviously, the closest thing to what one will be competing with is desired. For competition, one needs the bell to be grounded out. There are also the restrictions in the rulebook to take into account.


Is that clarifying, or muddifying? Because I certainly don't know anymore...

[babinet]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

I wish people would stop using the term wireless as it doesn't exist and has never existed. The correct term is reelless. Because of the FIE rules there is not even a prototype for reelless Foil. For Epee there is a prototype. It requires a full body lame' as well as a change to the Epee tip.

Wireless fencing for all 3 weapons is illegal. See M.45

STM (www.stm-fencing.com) has a system for all three weapons, as they say:

The StM ® has developed the wireless electric System of fixing the touches and is the only producing company of such kind in the world. The System is approved and certificated by the International Fencing Federation (FIE).

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by babinet

STM (www.stm-fencing.com) has a system for all three weapons, as they say:

It clearly violates FIE rules, so they're probably just playing with words for the second part, unless the FIE plans on making a huge rule change.

Does anyone have experience with the StM system? I think the version used by the Fishkill Fencers was made by Zivkovik, and the general report was that it was interesting, but not yet perfected.

[downunder]

The StM system is the one used for Sabre Grand Prix and World Championship events. As far as i'm aware they are the only company to have their design approved by the FIE.

Hrm, apparantly the Junior Epee A Grade in Laupheim had wireless gear by StM. I'll ask a friend who was there.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

They list a number of events that were held with "wireless" gear. All of the events they list, however, are sabre and epee. Unsuprising, but if calls into question the "all three weapons" part, perhaps.

[mrbiggs]

One of the advantages of the System is that for the first time the touch is registered on the fencer himself! When the fencer makes a touch, his mask “lights up”!!! Now the audiences on the tribunes and in front of TV screens better understand and have a greater interest in the bout.

The main principle of the System is the electrical transmission of signals and registering touches. Due to this it is clear that the System is foolproof and safe from outer interventions.

- The System is completely autonomous; it does not need any attachment to a particular place, electric networks, a metal strip, or a central touch detector,
- The System does not need any changes in fencer gear and any revision of the bout rules

It sounds like it's reelless, but they're saying wireless.

[DHCJr]

I looked at the homologation certificate. It appears it requires an overglove for Foil and Epee. I wonder if there is still off-target for Foil. One of the reports earlier was to have reelless Foil off-target must be eliminated.

Maybe there are changes in the specification that are not reported yet.