12-06-2006, 09:47 PM
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#1 | | Just Joined
Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Norwich
Posts: 4
| FIE Lexan Mask Required?
I recently bought an FIE mask from PBT Hungary, and upon it's arrival, my coach tells me that a rule has been instated making the only FIE approved masks the Lexan Mask with the visor. I have never heard this, and frankly, it surprises me. Can anyone verify/discount this 'rule'?
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12-06-2006, 09:54 PM
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#2 | | Have Blazer, Will Travel
Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 9,796
| Your coach is on crack, unless you're attending a World Championships or the last 64 DEs of a World Cup in Sabre. There is no requirement for them in Foil, Epee, or British, American or any other national competions anywhere that I am aware of. | 
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12-07-2006, 11:04 AM
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#3 | | Armorer
Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Long Beach, CA / Las Vegas
Posts: 3,386
| See below: http://www.fie.ch/download/rules/fr/...E%20050922.pdf
If you notice there is a separate list for traditional masks and for visor masks. Also, they don't state that the traditional masks are only Foil and Epee and the visor masks for Sabre only.
There are FIE certified traditional Sabre masks. As KD5MDK stated even though they are FIE they can not be used at the competitions listed. Maybe your coach was saying you could not use these there. If you are planning on going to one of these then you should get one, but if not I would avoid them like the plague.
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Donald Hollis Clinton, Jr. DHCJr@juno.com
To Teach is to Learn (Japanese Proverb)
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12-07-2006, 01:23 PM
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#4 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Hollywood, CA
Posts: 149
| I know this is a non-issue since there are so few around, but...
Isn't there a big place in the center of a Lexan mask that won't register a touch in sabre? I know they want the sport to be more TV friendly and all, bit were they thinking that the tip would slide to make contact with an edge, or that people should just adjust their styles to not hit the middle of the head? | |
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12-07-2006, 01:46 PM
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#5 | | Armorer
Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Long Beach, CA / Las Vegas
Posts: 3,386
| That is true and consider the history. It used to be voluntary. Not only did you have less target area for your opponent to hit, the FIE had a $500 bonus for those making the round of 8 and had used the mask through the whole competition. They also gave a rebate to any fencer who bought a visor mask. With all that going for it, they couldn't get the fencers to use them, so the Executive committee (RR) mandated them.
It is also interesting to note that both SEMI and the Medical Commission have been against them from the start for safety concerns and breathing ability.
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Donald Hollis Clinton, Jr. DHCJr@juno.com
To Teach is to Learn (Japanese Proverb)
Knowing the rule book by heart means nothing, if you don't understand the rules.
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12-07-2006, 03:49 PM
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#6 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Pacoima, ca USA
Posts: 5,710
| Quote:
Originally Posted by DHCJr 
It is also interesting to note that both SEMI and the Medical Commission have been against them from the start for safety concerns and breathing ability.
| And Roach paid no attenton to TWO commissions....oy. | |
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12-08-2006, 05:42 PM
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#7 | | Just Joined
Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Norwich
Posts: 4
| Quote: |
Your coach is on crack, unless you're attending a World Championships or the last 64 DEs of a World Cup in Sabre.
| I do not know if the saber competitions are what my coach is referring to, as I am a Epee only fencer (well, some foil, but no saber) Quote: |
That is true and consider the history. It used to be voluntary. Not only did you have less target area for your opponent to hit, the FIE had a $500 bonus for those making the round of 8 and had used the mask through the whole competition. They also gave a rebate to any fencer who bought a visor mask. With all that going for it, they couldn't get the fencers to use them, so the Executive committee (RR) mandated them.
| Is this still saber or is this all three weapons? The PDF you posted previously disagrees with this. Gah I am confused.
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12-08-2006, 06:30 PM
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#8 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: I have no home
Posts: 1,853
| Huh? The previous PDF was simply a list of what manufacturers make approved masks. It had nothing to do with the passage you quoted in the slightest. The answer to your question is that as a foil/epee fencer you are not required to wear a lexan visored mask for FIE tournaments. If you are a saber fencer at either world championships or in the the round of 64 and beyond at a senior world cup you must have a visor mask. It's relatively easy.
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I now dangle to the left....my tassle. Get your minds out of the gutter.
"Martin was not an optimist; he was a prisoner of hope." Optimism is about assuming there's evidence that justifies your outlook while hope is about creating the evidence and procuring your own happiness or vision of the world. - Professor West
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12-08-2006, 06:42 PM
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#9 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Hollywood, CA
Posts: 149
| Anyone know why sabre gets the lexan mask requirement? It wouldn't cut down on target area in foil, and the hit would still count in epee. I'm a little ways away from being in a tournament that requires them, but why'd sabre get so lucky? | |
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12-08-2006, 06:59 PM
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#10 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2003 Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,096
| Quote:
Originally Posted by one Gah I am confused. | There are a lot of masks that are approved as FIE masks. Many different people make them, and many people make them differently, but they're all safer than your garden variety crap club mask.
The visor masks are all FIE masks, and they're only required for a very small number of elite sabre tournaments AFTER you already done reasonably well in that tournament. Lots of people generally dislike wearing the visor masks, and they're significantly more expensive, and so most people who don't NEED them don't buy them/wear them normally. Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Troy Anyone know why sabre gets the lexan mask requirement? It wouldn't cut down on target area in foil, and the hit would still count in epee. I'm a little ways away from being in a tournament that requires them, but why'd sabre get so lucky? | I would assume it's because sabre is fast enough for the world of ADHD channel-surfers. Just a guess.
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12-08-2006, 10:51 PM
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#11 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: RPI (Troy, NY)
Posts: 912
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Troy Anyone know why sabre gets the lexan mask requirement? | It might have something to do with the reeless sabre and the lights being inside the masks.
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12-09-2006, 01:22 AM
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#12 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: near Boston
Posts: 3,052
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Troy Anyone know why sabre gets the lexan mask requirement? It wouldn't cut down on target area in foil, and the hit would still count in epee. I'm a little ways away from being in a tournament that requires them, but why'd sabre get so lucky? | Epee and Foil refused to wear them while Sabre complained less.
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12-09-2006, 03:09 AM
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#13 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: I have no home
Posts: 1,853
| I'm also not really worried about potential safety concerns in a saber tournament like I would be in foil or epee. Even if I take a point thrust to the face in the saber it wont be as traumatic as with an FIE foil or epee blade (not to mention it's pretty much a freak ocurrence.
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I now dangle to the left....my tassle. Get your minds out of the gutter.
"Martin was not an optimist; he was a prisoner of hope." Optimism is about assuming there's evidence that justifies your outlook while hope is about creating the evidence and procuring your own happiness or vision of the world. - Professor West
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12-09-2006, 09:37 AM
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#14 | | Armorer
Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Long Beach, CA / Las Vegas
Posts: 3,386
| Quote:
Originally Posted by larkmaj It might have something to do with the reeless sabre and the lights being inside the masks. | It has nothing to do with that. If you have seen how they put in the lights they are put on the sides to face out the mesh portion of the mask. It is supposedly so you can see the eyes while they are fencing. I have never been able to see their eyes on a TV screen while moving and whenever they stop off goes the mask, I wonder about their reasons.
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Donald Hollis Clinton, Jr. DHCJr@juno.com
To Teach is to Learn (Japanese Proverb)
Knowing the rule book by heart means nothing, if you don't understand the rules.
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12-09-2006, 10:13 AM
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#15 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: RPI (Troy, NY)
Posts: 912
| Quote:
Originally Posted by DHCJr It has nothing to do with that. If you have seen how they put in the lights they are put on the sides to face out the mesh portion of the mask. It is supposedly so you can see the eyes while they are fencing. I have never been able to see their eyes on a TV screen while moving and whenever they stop off goes the mask, I wonder about their reasons. | It was just a guess, my mind tells me that there must be some reason for changes like this. I guess I'll just have to accept the fact that this doesn't make sense.
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Sword-Chucks Yo!
The ref ALWAYS has right of way.
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12-09-2006, 11:39 AM
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#16 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2003 Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,096
| So, the plan is to make it more TV friendly--- that's the theoretical reason why for the masks----- but it's been my understanding that wireless systems for foil and epee aren't fully done, or, at the minimum, weren't as easy to do (or done as early) as wireless sabre. Thus, sabre was decided (for a variety of reasons) to be more tv-friendly, and thus the lexan masks (also "tv-friendly") were added all at the same time???
again, just a guess.
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---Myrddin Pythagoras' Flying Circus---
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12-10-2006, 12:11 PM
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#17 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 227
| Quote:
Originally Posted by DHCJr It is supposedly so you can see the eyes while they are fencing. I have never been able to see their eyes on a TV screen while moving and whenever they stop off goes the mask, I wonder about their reasons. | I stumbled across this quote in an FIE document while looking for something completely unrelated. Specifically the last paragraph:
"2. Mask with transparent visor
Following the decision of the Executive Committee to finance the mould for the transparent visor manufactured by Bayer, the prototype will be available to all manufacturers, which will be able to integrate it in their masks. The FIE can help those manufacturers but shall perceive between 1 and 5 EUR per each mask sold. No privilege shall be granted to one or the other of the manufacturer.
"Opinion of the Commission : favourable.
"Proposition of the commission :
It should be compulsory for A Cat. competitions, GP and Senior World Cups competitions.
However, it should not be compulsory for Junior competitions as there is no television on these competitions yet."  | |
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12-10-2006, 02:37 PM
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#18 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Pacoima, ca USA
Posts: 5,710
| Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdawg2121 I'm also not really worried about potential safety concerns in a saber tournament like I would be in foil or epee. Even if I take a point thrust to the face in the saber it wont be as traumatic as with an FIE foil or epee blade (not to mention it's pretty much a freak ocurrence. | What if the lexan falls out or there's a manufacturing flaw?
And don't forget...the sabre blade is allowed LESS deflection than an epee blade...technically, it's stiffer.
All it takes is one "freak occurance" and we have another Smirnov. | |
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12-11-2006, 01:56 AM
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#19 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: I have no home
Posts: 1,853
| The lexan falls out? I don't know about all of them but I know that with my mask if the lexan falls out I have significantly more problems to worry about...like why I'm fencing with the metal retaining plate off and none of the screws in. I suppose all it takes is one freak occurrence but can one not expect a touch of reasonablity? Even if a saber is technically stiffer there's still just not as much behind it as there is for an epee or even a foil. It's a thinner blade that doesn't have the mass or force behind it. (This may also be me but saber blades seem to be more brittle on the whole than foil or epee blades. A strong, fast hit with the tip of a saber blade is much more likely to leave you with a broken blade.) At the moment I'm not really convinced that with a modicum of common sense (changing the plates when they're old or have deep scratches, not exposing them to randomn temperature extremes like consistently leaving them in your cold car overnight before practicing) that the risk is particularly greater than with other saber masks. Potentially I guess something could happen, but then again potentially I could score a touch on that last barely there dead spot where the lame material wraps around the edge of the bib, even if it is almost certainly there b/c that's where my opponent keeps their lame clip...I'm willing to take that chance.
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I now dangle to the left....my tassle. Get your minds out of the gutter.
"Martin was not an optimist; he was a prisoner of hope." Optimism is about assuming there's evidence that justifies your outlook while hope is about creating the evidence and procuring your own happiness or vision of the world. - Professor West
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12-11-2006, 02:25 AM
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#20 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Pacoima, ca USA
Posts: 5,710
| Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdawg2121 Even if a saber is technically stiffer there's still just not as much behind it as there is for an epee or even a foil. It's a thinner blade that doesn't have the mass or force behind it. | Ask all the sabre fencers who have had their arms pierced by UNBROKEN blades in teh last few years on point attacks. | |
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