Whining about seeding

[float]

Anyone else ever notice that the people who whine & moan about seeding are rarely (if ever) the people receiving medals at the end of the day?

Wonder why that is....perhaps it is because they've learned that it is performance on the strip that matters not placement in a seeding matrix?!?!

We always have that age old tradition, the classic post-match "press conference":

"...I'd have had a better result if fencer X hadn't screwed up in pools and messed up the seeding."

I would argue that you would have had a better result if you had fenced better! I'm sorry, but if you're not good enough to beat fencer X, b****ing and moaning about seeding is never going to improve your fencing.

Would we all prefer to be the #1 seed at every competition because on paper at least, that ought to provide for an easier path to the podium? Absolutely! But the reality is that if you are good enough, you can win from any seeding even a low one.

[Durando]

Originally Posted by float

Would we all prefer to be the #1 seed at every competition because on paper at least, that ought to provide for an easier path to the podium? Absolutely! But the reality is that if you are good enough, you can win from any seeding even a low one.

In a local competition with 40 or less fencers, I would rather relax, warm up, and hit my stride in the pools.

Almost as entertaining as people who whine about seeding are those who are confident with a high seeding. You can always look and find someone in the top eight or so who just shouldn't be there. Just as you can always look and find someone in the top thirty-two who is certain to finish in the semis.

The other week a guy took me out 5-1 in pools--this rarely happens to me. He finished something like five places behind.

[Peach]

"Whining and moaning?" What brought that rant on? Some individual bothers you? It obviously gets under your skin. If you don't like people making excuses for not winning, you're focusing on the wrong people at tournaments.

[RebelFencer]

"Seed me wherever you want, the best will make it to the top."

Best quote for the situation.

[Coldfire]

Its kind of pathetic to whine about your seeding. Just fence your hardest. Sure you might get lucky sometimes and thus you get farther or maybe you get screwed and dont do well. It happens.

[float]

Originally Posted by Peach

"Whining and moaning?" What brought that rant on? Some individual bothers you? It obviously gets under your skin. If you don't like people making excuses for not winning, you're focusing on the wrong people at tournaments.

Didn't realize that expressing an opinion was a rant, but I suppose it's all in the eye of the beholder.

My intent was to comment on the absurdity of those who waste time on seeding rather than spending that energy improving their fencing.

I find the whole thing funny. It certainly doesn't bother me. I think that anyone who makes excuses for not winning is focusing on the wrong thing.

-F

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

"Seed me wherever you want, the best will make it to the top."

So will the turds in a cesspool.

[RebelFencer]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

So will the turds in a cesspool.

You're just trying to keep a brotha down.

[rcmatthews]

The people who complain about seedings aren't playing to win, they are playing to "do well". However, they are generally correct that they would have done better with a higher seed. The best person doesn't always win, in fact they frequently lose.

[DangerMouse]

Whining about people whining about seeding doesn't make the whining go away either.

Having said that, sometimes a small seeding change makes a huge difference. For example, the difference between some no name C in the 16 and Cody Mattern. Yep that's happened when Cody lost an easy bout in the pool.

[RebelFencer]

Originally Posted by rcmatthews

The people who complain about seedings aren't playing to win, they are playing to "do well". However, they are generally correct that they would have done better with a higher seed. The best person doesn't always win, in fact they frequently lose.

I disagree. The best person will win the tournament the majority of the time (barring ridiculous things happening), it's just a matter of the second best-third best-and so on not placing where they "should."

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

I disagree. The best person will win the tournament the majority of the time (barring ridiculous things happening),

The problem is that "ridiculous things" are all too common...which vitiates the "most of the time" condition. I mean, refereeing error/inability/blindness alone---unless you're confining your statement to competitions with good, paid referees...

See if you recognize this phenomenon:

You go to local tournaments, you consistently place 3rd or 4th. You go to NACs and you place in the 8 while the people who beat you in local tournaments don't make the 32. You win regional tournaments and the people who finish 1st and 2nd at your local meets, well, don't. Is this because of local bias? No. It's because of differences in referee ability and philosophy...

If it's true that "the best fencer almost always wins", there would be a lot more consistency in results.

And who is "better", Becca or Mariel or Sada? Keeth or Tim or Ivan? I mean, just look at any of the point standing lists---why isn't the point leader listed as placing 1st in all his tournaments?

[JMcC]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

I disagree. The best person will win the tournament the majority of the time (barring ridiculous things happening), it's just a matter of the second best-third best-and so on not placing where they "should."

To paraphrase Lincoln.
Most of the top fencers win most of the top positions most of the time, but all the top fencers do not win all the top positions all the time.

Especially when the mechanical processes of seeding, pool results and DE pairings pit two top fencers against each other prematurely in the DEs (would this count as a "ridiculous thing"?).

But overall, it all balances out equitably for all fencers over time (just as bad calls that go in your favor countervail bad calls that go against you).

[rcmatthews]

Another thought is that it is sometimes better for people to blame anything but themselves. For some, blaming themselves can cause large self-esteem issues, affecting performance. Thus blaming the seeding is a good thing for them.

[counterattack]

Originally Posted by rcmatthews

Another thought is that it is sometimes better for people to blame anything but themselves. For some, blaming themselves can cause large self-esteem issues, affecting performance. Thus blaming the seeding is a good thing for them.

I prefer a different route. I ***** about my seed, while beating myself up for not winning every bout, while I ***** about the good fencers who didn't win every bout and who force me to fence them in the 8 or 16. You can genuinely get shafted by tourney format and seedin weirdness. But you have to deal with it just like everything else you have to deal with to win. *****ing about your seeding doesn't make your fencing better or worse, and it can be a fun distraction.

So quit your *****ing about *****ing.

[Joe biebel]

Wait a minute! Isn't complaining about people that "whine about seeding" whining? I can't stand whining about whining. Wait a minute! Wasn't that whining? Wait a minute!....

[tehcow]

Seeding is just one of those annoying things in comps that you have to learn to live with I reckon. Sometimes it will go your way and you'll get a far easier path than you should and sometimes it will go against you and eventually it sort of evens out. It can be frustrating seeing someone you know you can beat get an easy path when you have to fence someone who inexplicably dropped a couple of poule bouts but should be seeded right near the top. All you can do is fence your best in the poules and hope everyone else does too.

[Peach]

I have been seeded too high, I have been seeded too low. I've been seeded so low that other fencers have gone to the bout committee to complain about it. I've been seeded so high people have snickered behind their hands. I've been knocked out by the low seed when I came out of the pools seeded first, I've knocked out the high seed when I messed up my pools, and I've seen some really hilarious results when someone had an attack of the stoopids and lost to someone they should have taken out 15-0.

If people fenced according to their seeding, why would we bother having tournaments? Just let the computer figure out who should have won, and stay home.

[Fechter1]

Originally Posted by Peach

I have been seeded too high, I have been seeded too low. I've been seeded so low that other fencers have gone to the bout committee to complain about it. I've been seeded so high people have snickered behind their hands. I've been knocked out by the low seed when I came out of the pools seeded first, I've knocked out the high seed when I messed up my pools, and I've seen some really hilarious results when someone had an attack of the stoopids and lost to someone they should have taken out 15-0.

If people fenced according to their seeding, why would we bother having tournaments? Just let the computer figure out who should have won, and stay home.

Ditto to all of that.

Just last weekend, I seriously snarfed my pool, and thus caused what easily could have been the final bout (or a semifinal) in the 32... These things happen. Not necessarily often to each fencer, but with that many fencers in a tournament, someone is bound to have a bad day and insert a landmine in the table. (In our case, it turned out to be a serious minefield, with 4 of the 8 As fighting it out for a spot in the 8... And I thoroughly enjoyed being in the middle of that one.)

[parrythis]

Originally Posted by float

I would argue that you would have had a better result if you had fenced better! I'm sorry, but if you're not good enough to beat fencer X, b****ing and moaning about seeding is never going to improve your fencing.

True, but that's not what this is about.

Example:

Fencer A is a good fencer - good enough to finish in the top 20% of the field.

Fencer B is a better fencer - good enough to finish in the top 15% of the field.

During the pools, fencer B fools around with a different grip, or different tactics - something that should be done during practice, not during a tournament - and seeds poorly - much lower than they normally would have.

This pits fencer A against fencer B in their first DE.

In the DE, fencer B goes back to his/her standard grip/tactics/etc. and wins the bout.

The downside of this is that fencer A finishes in the bottom half of the field instead of the top 25%. The result does not reflect fencer A's actual potential.

I'm not saying "whining" is either appropriate or inappropriate in this situation. The reality is that these types of situations happen and we have to accept that.

What I am saying that "try harder" is not the answer to every problem.