Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

Timacheff · 12-04-2006, 01:48 PM

We all know you can't have even part of your foot beyond the en garde line before the referee calls "fence" ... however, what is the rule -- and IS there a rule -- as to how far BEHIND the en garde line a fencer can stand before a bout begins? Must he/she be at the line, or could they be back a foot or two? Can they be as far back as behind the warning line?

As to WHY someone would like to do this, that's another question but perhaps an interesting discussion ...

Allen Evans · 12-04-2006, 01:56 PM

The rules (t17) states that the referee must place the fencers on guard at the start of the bout 2 meters from the center line....that is, behind the on guard line. One interpretation of this is that you can't be further away from the center line than 2 meters at the start of the bout. Another interpretation is that as long as you are behind the line, you're at the right distance.

I have never seen anyone more than a foot or so away from the line (and there ARE good reasons to be further away) so I've never seen anyone called on it.

Referees with more experiance should to chime in.

Allen

graymalkin · 12-04-2006, 01:56 PM

As far as I can tell from fencing alone (as opposed to those things I've attempted to look up in the rules), there is some regulation of how far back you can be. Directors will tell you to take a step forward when you're too far back, and I've never gotten the impression that it was an option. It always seems like they're telling you that you have to step forward.

On the other hand, it's not as though they measure and determine that one has to be an exact distance from one's opponent. At the beginning of the bout, one can start with one's foot up to and including approximately six inches behind the line before the director says anything about it, and in a lot of cases one can try to increase the distance between combatants by taking a step back before the command to fence is given.

In short, I apologize for even answering, since I have no clear answer at all. It does seem, though, that there is a limit to how far away you can be. I just don't know what it is.

keropie · 12-04-2006, 01:57 PM

On a quick reading, I see nothing in the rules except that you must be behind the line. I've had other more experienced officials tell me that you have to be 'at the line,' and therefore cannot be substantially behind it. The idea being that if the bout is 13-14 (you in the lead) with :02 on the clock, you can't just start at the rear limits. Though, I'm not sure that's supported by the rules.

graymalkin · 12-04-2006, 02:13 PM

I immediately went and checked the rules. But only, of course, after I had already responded. ...I'm a winner, no?

So, the USFA rulebook says that, "When [the fencers] are placed on guard during the bout, the distance between the competitors must be such that, in the position 'point-in-line,' the points of the two blades cannot make contact."

It also says, "The referee places the two competitors in such a way that the front foot of each is 2 meters from the center line of the strip (that is, behind the 'on-guard' lines)"

So, at the beginning of the bout, it has to be 2 meters, and during the bout, it can be anything that isn't close enough to touch blades in point-line.

There we go.

Inquartata · 12-04-2006, 02:17 PM

However, the proper distance between fencers when placed en guard after a halt in which no touch was awarded is specified. If one fencer tries to place himself too far back this distance cannot be attained. Moreover in sabre it gives him an advantage, because he can establish PIL without having to break distance.

EDIT: OOps, looks like Graymalkin beat me to it.

Back before electric sabre, in the days of the running attack ( may they never return! ) there was at least one top sabre fencer who would have come to guard at the back of his end of the strip if he could have done so. As it was the director would say "Fence!" and he'd immediately retreat to that point, in order to get take-off room for a running attack...

Timacheff · 12-04-2006, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by graymalkin

I immediately went and checked the rules. But only, of course, after I had already responded. ...I'm a winner, no?

So, the USFA rulebook says that, "When [the fencers] are placed on guard during the bout, the distance between the competitors must be such that, in the position 'point-in-line,' the points of the two blades cannot make contact."

It also says, "The referee places the two competitors in such a way that the front foot of each is 2 meters from the center line of the strip (that is, behind the 'on-guard' lines)"

So, at the beginning of the bout, it has to be 2 meters, and during the bout, it can be anything that isn't close enough to touch blades in point-line.

There we go.

So, during the bout, if the blades aren't touching, that doesn't say how far BACK they can be from one another, does it? Or am I missing something?

graymalkin · 12-04-2006, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timacheff

So, during the bout, if the blades aren't touching, that doesn't say how far BACK they can be from one another, does it? Or am I missing something?

No, no, I don't think you're missing anything. I think it specifically avoids declaring how far back is too far. Those quotes I gave were the entirety of their respective paragraphs. Nothing else was laid out.

mrbiggs · 12-04-2006, 02:26 PM

One of my teammates once had a ref who believed that you could be as far from the en guard lines as you want, so his opponent got a running start every touch. It was ugly.

mrbiggs · 12-04-2006, 02:38 PM

(Sorry for the double post, "edit" was being tempermental for some reason.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by keropie

On a quick reading, I see nothing in the rules except that you must be behind the line. I've had other more experienced officials tell me that you have to be 'at the line,' and therefore cannot be substantially behind it. The idea being that if the bout is 13-14 (you in the lead) with :02 on the clock, you can't just start at the rear limits. Though, I'm not sure that's supported by the rules.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The rulez

t.17.2 The Referee places each of the two competitors in such a way that
the front foot of each is 2 meters from the centre line of the strip (that
is, behind the ‘on-guard’ lines).

They do say two meters, I suppose that "immediately behind" is implied. The rules could certainly be interpreted to mean that they have to be right behind the lines, which would be the sensical option. Does anyone think it's less ambiguous in French?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The French rulez

t.17.2 L'arbitre fait placer chacun des deux combattants de telle sorte que le pied avant soit à 2 mètres de
la ligne médiane de la piste (donc derrière la ligne de "mise en garde").

Doesn't look like it.

Joe biebel · 12-04-2006, 05:23 PM

Score is 8 to 7 with 2 seconds left until the end of the match. The fencer with 7 touches just scored a hit to come within one touch of tying the match. The fencers are supposed to go to their enguarde lines, but the fencer with 8 touches stands with his back foot on his end line and insists it is legal and he is "behind" the enguarde line. What do you do?

oiuyt · 12-04-2006, 05:39 PM

Tell him to come to the on guard lines. If/when he (incorrectly) goes rules-lawyer, pull out a yellow card for delay of bout. If he continues, then the issue with his being up by a touch goes away fairly quickly.

-B

Cerian · 12-04-2006, 06:23 PM

It seems pretty clear that as far as coming on guard after a touch goes the rule says '2 meters from the center line,' not more than or less than that. The only confusion is the clarification which says 'behind the on guard line,' but that seems to only distinguish an inclusive end point from an exclusive one. You can't have your feet between the on guard lines, including the on guard lines, so, therefore, behind the on guard lines. However, that does not equal more than two meters from the center line, it just means not on the on guard line.

keropie · 12-04-2006, 09:32 PM

I bet that in plenty of situations if you are, indeed, behind the on guard line, you are more than 2 meters away from the center. After all, the lines themselves are awfully thick, and I haven't seen any officials checking to see how close to the line you are. Though that's a matter of practicality, of course.

Clearly the consensus answer (and the one that makes sense, anyhow) is that you must be at the on guard line or the point to point position, where at means reasonably close to in the eyes of the official.