Ever wanted to choke your coach????

**JEC** · 07-22-2002 08:59 PM

Let me stir the pot. I took the referee course at Greenville. A statement made in the course that embodies a consequence of this problem:
When you are the director, "you are god .[period]". The action is what you see.

In the pools of one of my son's competition, we knew the referee from a neighboring division who is a sabreur, but a terrible foil referee. The calls were as bad as opposing coaches acknowledging bad calls. It was disheartening for my son, but I guess part of his learning process.

If we had less abusive behavior in the strip, directors may be able to concentrate on following the action. However, that assumes that the director is able to see and understands the action.

Mo · 07-25-2002 11:09 PM

<<<Let me stir the pot. I took the referee course at Greenville. A statement made in the course that embodies a consequence of this problem:
When you are the director, "you are god .[period]". The action is what you see. >>>

I was watching a final for Junior or Cadet Men's Saber at the Junior Olympics and the calls were amazing (stupifying?) Finally one of the fencers said, "Mr. Forgothisname, what do I have to do to get a point?" This was not asked in a disrespectful manner. As a matter of fact the ref wanted to see the tapes that were being shot at the time after the bout to see exactly what EVERYONE in the crowd was yelling about.
The ref did not seem to understand an attack on prep, or a remise, it was amazing. Along came another ref, he started yelling, "eye of the beholder!!"

There has to be more than eye of the beholder or the "you are god philosophy." If you think you are the god then you better know your stuff. It is a real problem but I think a lot of it is people who are being tested, should not be directing finals. There should be roving ref observers who will call halt in a bout if the ref has been complained about and is still calling something that makes a HUGE difference in the life of a fencer.
For someone to go to a major event, to have spent all the time and money getting good at their weapon not to mention the cost of a trip and then have it flushed by a bad director is just NO GOOD for fencing.
It is so hard to be a parent and to see that kind of thing happen. grrrr

**Jenn** · 07-26-2002 08:52 AM

(Sigh) You know, listening to these horror stories of getting screwed by refs...it's times like these I'm glad I fence epee!

**D'Artagnan1673** · 07-26-2002 09:23 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jenn:
(Sigh) You know, listening to these horror stories of getting screwed by refs...it's times like these I'm glad I fence epee!

<hr /></blockquote>Amen

**darius** · 07-26-2002 09:58 AM

At Nationals, they were pretty desperate for refs -- I noticed people who hadn't taken the practical in certain weapons refereeing those weapons.

But, obviously, what do you do in that situation? If you need the manpower, you can't very well turn away help at an event of that magnitude.

And you epee fencers aren't immune from refs; what about early halts, dubious floor hits (since everybody insists on fencing right on the tape), and infighting?

darius

**Jenn** · 07-26-2002 10:19 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> And you epee fencers aren't immune from refs; what about early halts, dubious floor hits (since everybody insists on fencing right on the tape), and infighting? <hr /></blockquote>Touche.

**Catlady** · 07-29-2002 06:34 PM

I'll state my qualifications, or actually lack thereof right off. I do not have an official director's rating, though I have contemplated getting one from time to time. I have been told by different people in my club however, that I'm a good, fair director and those people are those whose opinion I respect.

The whole "the director is the final authority" thing has the opposite effect on me. It's why I don't like directing close bouts. I feel a huge amount of pressure being the final authority to be absolutely certain that I am calling everything perfectly. This makes me a perfect target for mind games of course. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is not all directors let their power go to their heads. although I do agree with the statement about absolute power corrupting absolutely. And yes, I have been told that I have an overactive conscience before.

**135711** · 07-30-2002 03:09 PM

as i was running down the hill by my house, getting a good run in, i suddenly had a flash-back, and decided to choke him again, but nahhh.

**D'Artagnan1673** · 07-31-2002 09:23 AM

I share Catlady's problem. I hate close touches where I may have missed a parry. It makes me feel very uncomfortable and nervous.

I try to avoid judging by staying on the strip all night in epee.

**135711** · 08-02-2002 06:05 PM

most adult fencers really don't need a lot of coaching, just general statements about keeping your arm in is sufficient.

Mo · 08-03-2002 11:29 AM

I'll state my qualifications, or actually lack thereof right off. I do not have an official director's rating, though I have contemplated getting one from time to time. I have been told by different people in my club however, that I'm a good, fair director and those people are those whose opinion I respect.

Catlady,
Do it, pass the test and be a referee. It you can "see" the actions and what is being done, even if you do make a mistake, fencers will be better off for it.
Really, I think women refs do not have as much ego involved. Women are much more intuitive and analytical... I know gross generalities... are you good in math too??

**135711** · 08-03-2002 05:13 PM

i feel it's important to separate directing from fencing. that's my only stong quarrel with fencing in general. it seems very harmless and no one intentionally cheats or is intentionally biased, but as people, we really can't help making mistakes. i think fencers should fence, directors should direct and they shouldn't do both in a competition.

**achilleus** · 08-03-2002 10:23 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 135711:
most adult fencers really don't need a lot of coaching, just general statements about keeping your arm in is sufficient.<hr /></blockquote>Depends at what level. At World Cups, the top fencers usually travel with their coach and receive tactical advice throughout the bout. At that level, the fencers don't need to be told 'keep your arm in' often if ever, they get told, 'the other fencer is doing x, counter it with y.'

But then again at that level, it's like pro sports, and the pro coaches do a lot of tactical coaching.

**achilleus** · 08-03-2002 10:27 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 135711:
i feel it's important to separate directing from fencing. that's my only stong quarrel with fencing in general. it seems very harmless and no one intentionally cheats or is intentionally biased, but as people, we really can't help making mistakes. i think fencers should fence, directors should direct and they shouldn't do both in a competition.<hr /></blockquote>It's a nice idea to separate the 2, but impossible given the small amount of refs and competitors we have. Also, while I would like say that no one intentionally cheats or is biased, unfortunately that just isn't true. But it goes back to being unable to separate derctors and fencers. Most refs fenced and/or coached. This means that most of them have a connection to many of the fencers, making it impossible to remain unbiased.

Fencers just have to deal with it.

**135711** · 08-04-2002 03:14 PM

i realize what both of you are saying, it's true, however, it is a weakness in the sport. i would ask, do other sports have the same conditions built in? for example, basketball, the refs don't play ball during the next quarter do they, during football games do the refs jump in and run a few down the field for old times sake? it's difficult because.....here goes.....

everyone wants to be a fencer.

herein lies the controversy

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