Ivy League coach's admissions influence

[Supermom]

Son was visiting an Ivy (after having submitted application) and wanted to look at the fencing facility while there (he had no team ambitions so had not contacted the coach). Coach saw us hanging around the door of the facility and rushed over as we were leaving to introduce self and find out who we were. Son said he was a fencer and just wanted to look at the fencing facility. The conversation then continued with the following rapid-fire questions from the coach:

What high school do you go to?
Where do you fence and who is your coach?
What program are you applying for?
What are your SAT scores?
What is your GPA?

And ended with: go to (URL for the recruiting page), answer the questions and I'll see if I can do something for you.

Yes, son was accepted. Didn't fence though. No idea if coach helped with acceptance or not (SAT's I and II scores and GPA also very good). But I would say that if you are a fencer, it can't hurt to go introduce yourself to the coach!

[oiuyt]

I was in Alburquerque a couple of weeks ago with my fencing students. I saw and talked to a tremedous amount of college coaches, including a fair amount of the Ivy League coaches. Why would all of the college coaches be that far away from home? Think about it. I did see a single one at the last Div II/Div III/Veterans I attended.

Assuming that you meant that you didn't see any at the last D2/3/Vet NAC, you also have to look at scheduling considerations. The March NAC usually falls in the week between NCAA Regionals and NCAA Nationals. Not exactly the best time to skip out of practices to go recruiting. This year it's the same weekend as NCAA Regionals -- fairly well guaranteeing that all of the NCAA coaches are otherwise occupied.

A Cadet/Junior NAC, especially in November, on the other hand, is not only perfectly scheduled for recruiting purposes, but also offers minimal conflict and is a good tournament for the collegiate fencers to attend. All of these contribute towards more NCAA coaches attending.

-B
(For reference, the only national tournament I don't attend each year is the March NAC, for the scheduling reason given above.)

[KD5MDK]

Note that there aren't that many fencers at the DivII/III/Vet that an NCAA coach is interested in: The best fencers there are the top Vets, who are ineligable, and most of the best Under-18 fencers in the US (if you're talking about top 100 or so) probably already have their B. So even if it weren't so inconveniently scheduled, the prime recruits wouldn't attend.

[Supermom]

Note that there aren't that many fencers at the DivII/III/Vet that an NCAA coach is interested in: The best fencers there are the top Vets, who are ineligable, and most of the best Under-18 fencers in the US (if you're talking about top 100 or so) probably already have their B. So even if it weren't so inconveniently scheduled, the prime recruits wouldn't attend.

This would be correct. For a high school fencer who is on spring break and who could go to that tournament without missing ANY SCHOOL AT ALL, but can't go because they are too highly rated, it's a real annoyance. But now I understand why the powers that be (probably) schedule it that way.

[KD5MDK]

It's the perfect time to have Div I or B & Over's at home then...

[Supermom]

It's the perfect time to have Div I or B & Over's at home then...

Yes, it is! So how come nobody does?

[oiuyt]

Better question is why people don't hold more D & under events opposite the D1 NACs (April, especially, comes to mind, but the other two as well).

B & over events have trouble getting large numbers of participants. Outside of a couple of select parts of the country (*cough*NYC*cough*) they're just too thin on the ground. Then again, if you can get a cluster interested in participating, use some format that involves relatively high amounts of bouts, rely on the fact that the overall numbers are low, and get everyone a hugely worthwhile day. Could easily then start pulling from a wider area as people will go knowing that they'll get a high number of quality bouts.

Many good fencers would love to go somewhere and fence 10+ high-quality bouts, rather than a typical tournament where no pool bout is interesting and there are maybe 3 strong DE bouts (figure one below level, and 1-3 near, at, or above level bouts).

Of course not exactly the tournament designed for those chasing pot tin medals or easy classification upgrades. :) Could easily stay under 15 participants and have the winner "earn" his/her E.

Real key to making it work is the seed cluster of people that'll draw others willing to travel a bit. Top-drawer referees would also go a long way towards ensuring that the overall experience matches what is required. Heavy promotion (primarily directly person-to-person, I'd imagine) seems almost mandatory to pull it off.

-B

[hello?]

THe coaches most definitely help. How much depends on the school and, obvioulsy, how desirable the fencer is. In the top fencing schools, you obviously have to be pretty good for the coach to really want you. In some of the schools with 'lesser' fencing teams, the fact that you have a D will probably make you desirable...How big "the list" is also depends on the school. I think most coaches can submit whatever list they want. If all else is equal between one of those candidates and one who has not been flagged by anyone, being on that list might make a difference. On top of "the list," from what I understand, is who is the coach's "top pick." THAT fencer gets a big push (ie. probably the one mentioned earlier with the low SAT scores but on the junior team was a top pick....I even heard of one fencer who knew was in top college BEFORE sending application). Some coaches get one "pick," some get 3, some get X -- again, depends on the college.

[erooMynohtnA]

THe coaches most definitely help. How much depends on the school and, obvioulsy, how desirable the fencer is. In the top fencing schools, you obviously have to be pretty good for the coach to really want you. In some of the schools with 'lesser' fencing teams, the fact that you have a D will probably make you desirable...How big "the list" is also depends on the school. I think most coaches can submit whatever list they want. If all else is equal between one of those candidates and one who has not been flagged by anyone, being on that list might make a difference. On top of "the list," from what I understand, is who is the coach's "top pick." THAT fencer gets a big push (ie. probably the one mentioned earlier with the low SAT scores but on the junior team was a top pick....I even heard of one fencer who knew was in top college BEFORE sending application). Some coaches get one "pick," some get 3, some get X -- again, depends on the college.

I don't think being a D will help you get in anywhere.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

I don't think being a D will help you get in anywhere.

But there are a lot of places where it will make you desireable, which was all that was said in the post you replied to!

[erooMynohtnA]

But there are a lot of places where it will make you desireable, which was all that was said in the post you replied to!

In a post completely filled with coach's influence which is part of a thread completely filled with coach's influence, I think it can be inferred.

And if you're going to split hairs, I never said it didn't make you desirable.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

In a post completely filled with coach's influence which is part of a thread completely filled with coach's influence, I think it can be inferred.

And if you're going to split hairs, I never said it didn't make you desirable.

Hey, every time I've inferred thing, I've gotten in trouble .......

Coming into college, I was unrated, and I was "recruited".......... Granted, the recruiting directed toward me was bizarre, but, uh, yeah.

[wbowman]

I'm an Ivy League grad (Princeton '67), and I've done a fair number of alumni interviews with applicants, so I know a little about the process -- though this is completely unofficial.
Being a sought-after athlete will not automatically get you into an Ivy League school, but if you can pass academic muster, it will help. But then so will being a concert-level violinist, a top-flight ballerina, or having demonstrated excellence in any other endeavor.
Once the Ivys weed out the applicants who could not do the work, they're still left with many more prospects than they have room for. That's where the subjective judgments come into play. Anything that makes an applicant stand out from the pack and catch the attention of the admissions committee can help.
I can't actually say how much influence the coaches do have at Princeton, but certainly they're not without influence (but for that matter, if an applicant is an artist or a musician, the Admissions Office will have their tape, portfolio, or whatever evaluated by the relevant faculty. Same for athletics.
(we did have an admissions director some years back, however, who many alumni felt was actively hostile to athletics -- or at least the football program. May have been a bum rap, but we were certainly losing a lot of football games in those years).
Do the Ivy coaches recruit? Certainly (the search criteria for Princeton's newly-hired fencing coach included recruiting ability). Can they guarantee admission? I doubt it.
As for financial aid, the Ivy League does not give athletic scholarships, but at Princeton, at least, anyone who gets in is eligible for financial aid based on need. The goal is to make sure that anyone who's admitted be financially able to attend.
While being an athlete may help in getting in, neither admission nor financial aid is specifically linked to athletic participation. I had a rommmate who'd been recruited as a football player, but blew out his knee in his senior year of high school. He still got in, and he still got financial aid.

I agree with the previous advice about visiting colleges you're interested in and/or contacting the coach. Princeton has a page in its athletic department website where you can contact the coach on-line.