Negative coaching

[Li'l Bebe]

I remember at the NAC in Albuquerque, I was watching a final bout in men's foil, (I didn't know either of the fencers) and I noticed one coach in particular seemed almost abusive in the "advice" he gave to his fencer. Instead of trying to calm his disgruntled pre-teen, or perhaps even offer tactical ideas, errors in technique to correct, or weaknesses in his opponent to consider, he yelled at him at what a lazy, obnoxious, disrespectful fencer he was, and his fencer started to crumble. (he lost the bout)

Yes, I have no clue about either coach or fencer's background, but to me on the surface, this seemed a little extreme, if not abusive coaching.

Thoughts?

[ChamorroZorro]

Hey there. I'm relatively new to fencing, but I'm pretty sure coaches are the same in any sport. From my experience, the coaches who are abusive to their players tend to do worse because I think it's hard enough to perform under pressure without having the added fear of the wrath of a coach. The best teams I ever played on were the ones where the coach gave positive reinforcement without being abusive. I'm not saying the coach didn't work the players..but worked them in such a way that fortitude/being down on points/losing is a lesson learned rather than a punishment.

Kittrick

[Sciurus-Rex]

It's the same in any role in life: Some people can do it well, some can't.

[PalmFrond]

I don't really like to judge this kind of thing because (1) presumably the coach knows the fencer's needs better than I do and (2) some people probably thrive on being told how badly they're doing. Each to their own (though obviously if that was what the coach was doing, it didn't work here).

However I do think that anyone who lights into a prepubescent in the way described here needs to calm down. Enough kids drop out of fencing without a wannabe 'champion' coach giving a helping hand. And I personally prefer to work with coaches who don't let their egos interfere with their job.

[KD5MDK]

While I don't like seeing that sort of thing all that much, the kid did make the final. I wonder if that means anything.

[T H U G]

you dont be yellin at no kid. that shiz aint fly. shwiggity diggity, werd up. da other coach, he may be tellin, and that bad coach, he be yellin. yellin dat his fencer be smellin. his fencer, his name be Magellin. the other fencah winz tho, cuz his shoes?


they be gellin.

[nahouw]

I don't really like to judge this kind of thing because (1) presumably the coach knows the fencer's needs better than I do and (2) some people probably thrive on being told how badly they're doing. Each to their own (though obviously if that was what the coach was doing, it didn't work here).

I remember there was once a woman in our club, and her coach left the club. She transferred to another coach within the club, but then she quit several weeks afterwards, because she didn't like the new coach. She said it was because he was too patient and nice -- the other coach used to yell at her alot to correct things, and he wasn't doing that to her. Go figure.

[TrainingDummy]

I remember there was once a woman in our club, and her coach left the club. She transferred to another coach within the club, but then she quit several weeks afterwards, because she didn't like the new coach. She said it was because he was too patient and nice -- the other coach used to yell at her alot to correct things, and he wasn't doing that to her. Go figure.

Her actions make alot of sense to me. Some background: I am a relatively new fencer, and I often screw up at tournaments because fencing and winning mean so much to me that I often end up psyching myself out and losing relatively easy bouts, making myself more frustrated and angry. A couple weeks ago, I had a grueling lesson with the head coach at my club (KD5 knows who I'm talking about) who is not afraid to be strict with his fencers. He pushed me back and forth, rapping me on the leg with his epee and demanding I "do it right this time" and "FOCUS!" every time I would mess up. I ended the lesson humiliated and covered in sweat. On the drive back I was somewhat resentful of my coach because I didn't see him act like that in any other lessons that night, but seething inside for performing so poorly. That's when it clicked: He frustrated me and angered me because I NEEDED to be frustrated and angered in practice situations so I could learn to deal with situations like that in tournaments; an opponent shows no qualms about pissing you off by scoring on you with the same action repeatedly, in fact, they aim to do so. It meant alot to me that my coach not only saw my problem, but was willing to be harsh with me when he knew it would help fix it.

Some people need a coach that may seem negative or even cruel to others to properly motivate them or purposely anger and frustrate them. I'm glad I have one.

[eac]

I remember at the NAC in Albuquerque, I was watching a final bout in men's foil, (I didn't know either of the fencers) and I noticed one coach in particular seemed almost abusive in the "advice" he gave to his fencer. Instead of trying to calm his disgruntled pre-teen, or perhaps even offer tactical ideas, errors in technique to correct, or weaknesses in his opponent to consider, he yelled at him at what a lazy, obnoxious, disrespectful fencer he was, and his fencer started to crumble. (he lost the bout)

Yes, I have no clue about either coach or fencer's background, but to me on the surface, this seemed a little extreme, if not abusive coaching.

Thoughts?

The bout was probably Y14, the fencer was probably Turner Caldwell (blonde, thin, righty, blue eyes, mildly elfin?), and the coach was probably Greg Massialas. I am Turner's teammate, and I find Greg's yelling usually very helpful, because the only time when he becomes unhelpful is when I'm already fencing pretty terribly, he's already given a bunch of advice, and I haven't followed it. Other than that, when he's there, he pretty much always yells useful and correct advice. And, frankly, I would much prefer a coach with very high standards who loudly yells correct advice and gets disgusted when I don't do it to a coach who is more reticent and doesn't help as much.

I don't take the disgust personally-- think of it this way: if I am fencing disgustingly compared to how I could be fencing, either my coach is indifferent and doesn't tell me about it, or he gets disgusted. I much prefer disgust to indifference or even the lack of the standards to be disgusted. This (disgusted) approach is obviously not for everyone, but it works for me. And, I think, the M team coaches (Greg, Dean Hinton, Oliver Winkworth) often notice when this approach doesn't work for someone, and vary it. I remember Dean saying to me that I was more the kind of person he would yell at, whereas he would give gentler advice to another teammate in question.

The other reason I find it helpful is that I tend to get psychologically freaked out in tournaments, and when someone on the sidelines is getting freaked out on my behalf, I can let them do the freaking and I can calm down and fence. I'm working on not being freaked out normally, but it helps in the meantime.

Edit: P.S.: To those who say that coaches who yell like this must not do very well, notice that the M team has a ridiculous number of good national results (over 100 national medals in 5-6 years of operation, ~25 of them gold), and even some good international results.

[Allen Evans]

There is a big difference between negative coaching -- as talked about in the first post in this thread -- and creating situations in training in which the athlete is put under pressure (real, or imagined). Some coaches know the difference, and are capable of walking a very fine line between the two. Some coaches do not, and their athletes succeed only either by accident, or because the athlete is "tough enough" to survive the coach.

I'm not big on negative coaching, myself. I like to think I'm firm, when necessary, and once or twice I've "lost" my temper with an athlete to make a point or impart a lesson. On the whole, I don't give a lot of negative coaching because a large number of athletes that I work with won't respond to it. I find that the type of person who performs best under constant abuse is much rarer than most people think.

Allen

[Wafath]

I personally haven't had a student that I thought did better with negative coaching. I think it is important to distinguish high expectations durring lessons vs negative coaching on the day of the tournament.

I am still learning as a coach, but I have found that it is better to phrase negative messages in a positive manner. If I think my fencer is being stupid, and not fencing to their capability, the message is not "why are you fencing stupidly?" but "You _can_ beat this guy. What are you going to change to do it?". If the fencer is being lazy, and it is costing them touches, the message is not "You are lazy." but "You need to be more agressive. Attack more, and don't be afraid of the simultaneous." (sabre).

I can't think of a time where I have told a fencer something negative (intentionally or not) on strip where it has helped the fencer win the bout, and as a coach everything I do at a tournament must acomplish at least one of the two goals: winning the bout, and making the student a better fencer.

W

[oiuyt]

"He only beats me because he cares so much!"

"He only hits me when I do something stupid and deserve it!"

-B

[telkanuru]

There's a line between negative reenforcement an abuse. A good whap on the mask is something that I find helpful in making me fix something (if my coach can land it, I did something pretty wrong). This is entirely dependant on the student.

Shouting, berating, etc. is NEVER ok, especially in a public venue like a tournament, and especally with a teenage or younger fencer.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

I once watched someone yell at his fencer, telling her that she was embarassing him, that she was letting her team down (.... it was a usfa event, he was her college coach). She might have, perhaps, been the kind of person who might respond to that, maybe--- but even then, it would have had to be "you're embarassing yourself". She quit fencing for him, and transfered somewhere there was no fencing.

My coach knows when I'm holding back, not giving her everything, and will tell me that. She might be one of the only people I know that can tell that. She knows when to be firm with me, and she knows that occational yelling at me the way she does with some of the boys will keep me better focused. Then again, she also knows when to say nice things, and how to say the nice things.

But she also knows that I would never for a minute fence for someone who was mean or negative.

Had I been the friend who was getting yelled at for embarassing her coach, I would have kneed him in the balls.

[eac]

"He only beats me because he cares so much!"

"He only hits me when I do something stupid and deserve it!"

Not exactly. Mainly, the difference is that for me, at least, the words aren't damaging or hurtful.

[JMcC]

She might have, perhaps, been the kind of person who might respond to that, maybe--- but even then, it would have had to be "you're embarassing yourself".

Had my first experience at a European competition recently, and saw a number of the European coaches berating their youth fencers during bouts (couldn't understand the words, but the tone, expression and gestures were perfectly clear).

What surprised (pleased) me the most was that a number of the fencers turned to their coaches and verbally gave it right back to them (again, didn't need a translation).

[teamusaepee]

This is a really individual thing, varying with age, personality, etc. but usually negative coaching of the type described in the first post either doesn't work at all or it is less efficient. Personally, if there is something I am not doing correctly in a lesson or bout, I really want to know. I don't really care if they say it nicely or not, I just want to know. However, this is a far cry from the coach yelling at you on strip or in front of other people. I think the question is - when the coach acts this way, is it because they care about you and/or your fencing, or is it for their ego/power trip? In the latter case, most fencers will either quit or just go fence somewhere else.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Different strokes for different folks.

And if you're a coach, wait till you're really good at what you do before you start tinkering with this sort of stuff. It can break your career.

[Guymelef]

I personally haven't had a student that I thought did better with negative coaching. I think it is important to distinguish high expectations durring lessons vs negative coaching on the day of the tournament.

I am still learning as a coach, but I have found that it is better to phrase negative messages in a positive manner. If I think my fencer is being stupid, and not fencing to their capability, the message is not "why are you fencing stupidly?" but "You _can_ beat this guy. What are you going to change to do it?". If the fencer is being lazy, and it is costing them touches, the message is not "You are lazy." but "You need to be more agressive. Attack more, and don't be afraid of the simultaneous." (sabre).

I can't think of a time where I have told a fencer something negative (intentionally or not) on strip where it has helped the fencer win the bout, and as a coach everything I do at a tournament must acomplish at least one of the two goals: winning the bout, and making the student a better fencer.

W

I'm absolutely in agreement with this. Although, I might be a wee bit biased Having recently had a sports psychology seminar the above point was driven home. The best way to frame negative aspects with positive reinforcement.

I started fencing late in comparison to average, taking the beginner's classes offered by a college club. In the beginning I took a relaxed attitude towards fencing, not having an extensive athletic background. It was fine in the beginning, but I started to want to succeed. I started regular private lessons with a coach in his late-sixties. He was offering it for a few dollars, being retired and still in love with the sport.

He certainly pushed me, and I certainly frustrated him at times. Whenever I didn't get something, or kept screwing up he would wrap me over the mask with whatever weapon we were working in. In free bouting he would not relent, I had to earn every touch. It was certainly embarrassing for an ego-centric college kid to lose to a man more than three times his age; but it was motivating as well. I owe my success to him.

As far as the pupils of the yellers and humiliators, I've done well against them in competitions. Even if they are technically superior to me, I know that if I stay come they will eventually be demoralized and beat themselves. I don't understand the hard-core attitudes I've come across as an athlete and a ref. This isn't the military. There, it's you're more afraid of your officer than enemy fire, injury, or death.

This is fencing. Compared to the sports featuring balls there is no big paycheck, no television highlight reel, no big-time endorsement deals. I know there are exceptions, and thank God for them for they help keep interest in our sport. But, we need to keep it fun too. A kid shooting baskets in his driveway can match or exceed the averages put up by NBA players. Why? He's doing it for love of the game.

[Chris]

I don't really like to judge this kind of thing because (1) presumably the coach knows the fencer's needs better than I do and

Why in the world would you think that?

(2) some people probably thrive on being told how badly they're doing. Each to their own (though obviously if that was what the coach was doing, it didn't work here).

Don't confuse trying harder with 'thriving'!
Corrective feedback is important, even when one is winning/succeeding, but there's a difference between corrective and destructive...

However I do think that anyone who lights into a prepubescent in the way described here needs to calm down. Enough kids drop out of fencing without a wannabe 'champion' coach giving a helping hand.

No argument here!

And I personally prefer to work with coaches who don't let their egos interfere with their job.

Yeah, well that's a real 'if-fy' propostion!
Good luck!