Late fees and askFred

[obsidian]

I recently went to a local tournament, where for the first time, they decided to use Mr. Fred. If you registered online before the competition, the competition cost $15. If you registered at the competition, it cost $25.

Now I understand that pre-registering is a great help to organizers, but when does a late fee become unreasonable or draconian?

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by obsidian

I recently went to a local tournament, where for the first time, they decided to use Mr. Fred. If you registered online before the competition, the competition cost $15. If you registered at the competition, it cost $25.

Now I understand that pre-registering is a great help to organizers, but when does a late fee become unreasonable or draconian?

well after this example.

New England Division's policy (which I think is reasonable) for qualifiers is registration is due 2 weeks ahead of time. Between two weeks and 3 days prior to the competition, fees are double. Registration at the door? triple fees.

The Nationally mandated fee structure for SYC events (which I think is a bit harsh) is registration is due a month ahead. between a month and 3 days prior, triple fees. registration at the door is triple fees plus an extra $200.

-m

[mrbiggs]

It's triple fees at nationals, and they actually make it difficult for you to preregister. (No online registration, fax machine is always busy for the last few days, they never post the event times, etc.)

If it's askFRED, there's really no reason not to preregister.

[obsidian]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

It's triple fees at nationals, and they actually make it difficult for you to preregister. (No online registration, fax machine is always busy for the last few days, they never post the event times, etc.)

If it's askFRED, there's really no reason not to preregister.

National events are a known commodity with a clear need for preregistration. Plus, if you want, you can sign up now for all your national events.

When you're starting out with preregistration, particularly for the first time, doesn't it make more sense for you to provide incentive for preregistering rather than disincentive for (what was previously) registering on time?

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by obsidian

National events are a known commodity with a clear need for preregistration. Plus, if you want, you can sign up now for all your national events.

What's the difference between that and a local tournament?

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by obsidian

National events are a known commodity with a clear need for preregistration. Plus, if you want, you can sign up now for all your national events.

When you're starting out with preregistration, particularly for the first time, doesn't it make more sense for you to provide incentive for preregistering rather than disincentive for (what was previously) registering on time?

Talk about semantics...

okay, so think of it as raising entry fees to $25 with a $10 discount for registering early.

this is really a glass half full/empty debate...

-m

[RebelFencer]

Originally Posted by obsidian

I recently went to a local tournament, where for the first time, they decided to use Mr. Fred. If you registered online before the competition, the competition cost $15. If you registered at the competition, it cost $25.

Now I understand that pre-registering is a great help to organizers, but when does a late fee become unreasonable or draconian?

Seriously, once you get out more a $25 entry fee isn't a big deal. Besides, why not just preregister ahead of time and if you can't make it just delete your preregistration?

[Mauler]

Originally Posted by obsidian

When you're starting out with preregistration, particularly for the first time, doesn't it make more sense for you to provide incentive for preregistering rather than disincentive for (what was previously) registering on time?

What they could have done instead, is to say that if you register it's $25. But if you "pre-register" it's $10 discount!

At a recent gig I was at, I think the entry per event was $35 through "pre-registration." If you showed up on the day of and wanted to fence (not 100% if that was even allowed), or pre-registered after the deadline, then it was $75 per event.




I've also worked at a RYC where they posted their late fee policy in a HUGE banner right behind the registration table for the benefit of folks who wanted to walk in the day of. I think it was a single sentence declaring the first event will start at $240 (or was it $340?) I recognized some RYC-siblings competing that weekend (from opposite side of the continent) who were not on the pre-registration list -- both in multiple-events, no less.

Presumably their choice to attend was affected by the results from previous week's RYC elsewhere in the country. If you think the late fee was steep, imagine the late-minute flight/lodging cost...

[obsidian]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

Seriously, once you get out more a $25 entry fee isn't a big deal. Besides, why not just preregister ahead of time and if you can't make it just delete your preregistration?

Because this was the first time they added the late fee and it wasn't clearly put out that they would charge an extra $10 for not preregistering.

Also, I don't have too much problem paying $15 for a tournament with crappy refs and ungrounded strips. Nearly double that amount is not something I'm readily willing to pay. On the other hand, I might be willing to pay triple entry fee for a national tournament if I know that the tournament will be attended by extremely strong fencers, have very competitent refs, good equipment, and a clearly established penalty for signing up late.

And what if someone doesn't have an internet connection? Is it fair to charge him extra simply because he didn't have access to askfred?

[RebelFencer]

Originally Posted by obsidian

Because this was the first time they added the late fee and it wasn't clearly put out that they would charge an extra $10 for not preregistering.

Also, I don't have too much problem paying $15 for a tournament with crappy refs and ungrounded strips. Nearly double that amount is not something I'm readily willing to pay. On the other hand, I might be willing to pay triple entry fee for a national tournament if I know that the tournament will be attended by extremely strong fencers, have very competitent refs, good equipment, and a clearly established penalty for signing up late.

And what if someone doesn't have an internet connection? Is it fair to charge him extra simply because he didn't have access to askfred?

Ah, well if they didn't advertise that then yeah, that's a very valid complaint. Although if the person didn't have the internet I would imagine they could go to a public library, a friend's house, or just contact the tournament organizers via telephone or snail mail with their registration intention and information.

[Sciurus-Rex]

Originally Posted by epeemike81

okay, so think of it as raising entry fees to $25 with a $10 discount for registering early.

I've suggested likewise. It seems like the more positive perspective -- you help organizer with early planning (hiring refs, knowing how many strips we'll need, etc.), and you get a discount for your efforts.

It continues to amaze me how many prefer to focus on a sense of "penalty" instead.

Originally Posted by obsidian

And what if someone doesn't have an internet connection? Is it fair to charge him extra simply because he didn't have access to askfred?

On the surface, this sounds like a valid concern. But it crumbles once you take a closer look at the practical details. For example, fencers who are willing and eager to compete at an event beyond their hometown borders are probably already living at an economic level that allows them access to a computer and Internet. And if it's a local tourney, they've probably heard about it by word of mouth and can contact organizers directly by other means.

It is unreasonable to expect a well-organized fencing competition to suddenly spring into existence overnight, and to decide to show up with the same last-minute consideration.

[FencingKitten]

I see where you're coming from with them not advertising it in advance.

The SWSection has learned why prepayment is a good thing.

About two years ago, one club lost thousands of dollars because some idiot preregistered a very large number of good fencers, and the organizer planned referees, hotels, and venues to match, and got the smallest tournament of the year.

About a year ago, an organizer who required prepayment got a 98% show rate (less than 2% no shows) and some additional walk ins by having a modest at-the-door fee but requiring prepayment to preregister. Her planning was perfect and the tournament was a dream. Except I lost. But the organization was flawless.

Requiring preregistration and prepayment protects both the organizers and the fencers from slackers and idiots.

[obsidian]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

What's the difference between that and a local tournament?

For one, local tournaments are generally the same size from tournament to tournament and do not require use of a convention center. Also, you need to spend much less money for refs.

Most of the time preregistration is used when the tournament requires it (think national event, SYR, heavily attended and popular local events). For most local events, preregistration is a nicety not a necessity. Therefore, levying steep fees for something that is purely optional is unreasonable.

Perhaps in your mind, $10 extra isn't steep. It is to me. Especially when the tournament isn't run well.

[KD5MDK]

If the tournament isn't well run, why would you pay any amount to go there?

[reawl]

Don't forget you can also accept fees through AskFRED. This helps avoid having people sign up and then not show. You've got their money. So now if you're able to close pre-reg 2 weeks in advance you can hire the right number of refs, order t-shirts (accepting payment for those as well through AskFRED), and ensure you have the right space.

Regardless of how you structure it (penalty or discount), experience has shown that fencers need a cash incentive to plan ahead and pre-register. That aspect simply can't be avoided. Tournament organizers also have an obligation to make sure the fees are clear ahead of time; surprises are bad when money is involved.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by obsidian

For one, local tournaments are generally the same size from tournament to tournament and do not require use of a convention center. Also, you need to spend much less money for refs.

Most of the time preregistration is used when the tournament requires it (think national event, SYR, heavily attended and popular local events). For most local events, preregistration is a nicety not a necessity. Therefore, levying steep fees for something that is purely optional is unreasonable.

It's optional at both. The usfa COULD register everyone at the door, it would just take a lot of time and effort. Same with a local tournament.

Originally Posted by obsidian

Perhaps in your mind, $10 extra isn't steep. It is to me. Especially when the tournament isn't run well.

Then preregister?

If they didn't make it steep, people wouldn't preregister. $5 or $10 is completely normal for what I've seen.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

fax machine is always busy for the last few days

When's the last time that you tried to fax something to the National office and encountered problems with a busy fax machine?

Certainly used to be a problem. I haven't encountered it over the past couple of seasons (granted I always fax MY forms in before the last few days, I am occasionally faxing OTHER people's forms in during that last day or two).

-B

[Peach]

Last time I faxed an entry to the national office, not only was it not busy, the confirmation arrived by the time I had walked back down the hall.

[CvilleFencer]

About a year ago we started using Fred for all out tourneys. Folks in our division are usually very good about pre-registering, although we have had some recent problems with (for some reason especially younger fencers) pre-registering and then not showing up. A couple of our Board Members are in favor of making all events pre-pay or a penalty at the door and I am starting to swing that way as well.

Preregistration helps the division, helps the host club and is good for fencing in the local area (events start quicker, easier to have enough refs/strips/etc). It also helps to draw more folks to events (if they know it will be a large or strong event) and it makes it easy to track event results on line. There is really no reason not to do it.

I don't really get not wanting to use it... In this specific case, I think the organizers should have made it clear that there would be an "at the door" surcharge and I think that is should always be possible to mail in or confirm by phone preregistration, but there is really no reason not to preregister. However, some people simply won't do anything helpful to their community unless they are forced to do it. Hence the at the door fee. If someone wants to show up at the last minute, I don't see a problem paying making them pay the "annoying last minute fencer" tax...

[Redblade]

I've always figured it was a budgeting issue -- some people are used to not paying expenses/debts until the last minute, and they expect fencing events to work out the same way. (shrug) Or maybe not. Just one possible explanation.