Pommelling Epeeist - How do you config your own french grip weapon?

[BySword]

I am just interested on this subject because I myself use a french in epee too, though I am personally not that picky.

I will start first -
blade - rigid blade, I usually use very cheap blade for practice (sometimes house brand blade, but I found STM non FIE blades are cheap and quite long lasting); and BF white for tournaments
points - LP GT points with german wire
bell guard - Viniti or normal FWF german, they are about the same weight for me
grip - Leon paul leather grip, it just feels good for me(the curvature and all that)
pommel - FWF italian style non-insulated sold by fencing.net, wrapped with some grippy tennis racket tape, but I am looking for pommels with simliar size
other special things - I tape the end of my grip to get the best feel, heavy cant; and recently I found out that somehow my tang is curved and i am talking about the WHOLE tang is a litte curved, not just at the shoulder of the blade. Too heavy pommelling usage maybe?
where you hold it - I hold it in a such way that my pinky about a quarter inch from the end of my pommel, as opposed to cradelling the pommel in my hand. also my hand shifts infrequently.

[Craig]

Ask if Carlos is going to be around AFC any time in the near future and go into the club and fence with him some then. He's got a nice setup for his french grip and could show you what he did.

He's using the grip that is curved slightly - it's one that was referenced here before as being used by MacKay. AL grip covered by surgical tubing.

edit:
Found this thread using the search function. Couldn't find the one discussion the specific french grip I was thinking of though:

Discussion of Miliaoni's french grip:
http://www.fencing.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1534

Craig

[veeco]

My setup is a little different:

I use the Prieur/Cartel French grip handles that have a wooden core, and rubber on top. They do break easily, but have a nice grip, and fit in my hands well. They also have approximately the same thickness over all the length of the handle, which I like.

Pommels I use the Prieur/Cartel bronze colored ones (big ones). They provide a nice balance to the blade, but are a little bit slippery, so I put tip tape around them (and have to clean the goop everyonce in a while).

Blades I use exclusively BF FIE, white or blue, depends on what I can get.

I only use ultralight bell guards.

Once I have my cant set (quite heavy cant as well), I usually fiddle a bit with the tang at the end, to give a little bit of an angle to the tang where the handle and the pommel join. This fits better in my hands.

While I do sometimes change the position of my hand on the grip, I tend to keep it pommelled quite a bit, with the pommel actually cradled in my pinkie and ring fingers, and most of my grip is actually provided by the thumb and the index finger.

[LordShout]

I feel that if I'm going to pommel I shouldn't get a special special advantage and just use a regular leather grip and pommel. Hockey tape would improve the grip on the pommel however.

[telkanuru]

I use Vniti blades with FWF tips.

Guard is likewise Vniti.

Grip and Pommel are PBT, grip is aluminum core (stops the tang from snapping when I flick).

Pommel has a slight amount of tape on it to allow it to sit better in my hand and to match the diameter of the grip, as well as to stop it from slipping around.

It's not a french grip epee, it's a french grip club

[BySword]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

I use Vniti blades with FWF tips.

Guard is likewise Vniti.

Grip and Pommel are PBT, grip is aluminum core (stops the tang from snapping when I flick).

Pommel has a slight amount of tape on it to allow it to sit better in my hand and to match the diameter of the grip, as well as to stop it from slipping around.

It's not a french grip epee, it's a french grip club

haha, interesting! so you hold it like a sabre or with pistol hand position?
i am thinking about using a viniti as my practice blade but I am worrying about it's whippyness. Back when I was still fencing pistol with a viniti, the feel was actually quite good. But I have a quite different game with pommelling now, I worry that viniti is not good for accurates picks to small targets(ie. wrist, foot, ect.)

[dridge]

BF FIE blue or white blade (and I don't worry about the batch)

Leon Paul GT tip

Vniti guard

Schermasport grip (rubber over metal)

Schermaport two-piece pommel (heavy, incredibly expensive, but worth every cent)

Tang set about 1.5 cm short of the limit, with a slight bend

No tape

Every now and then I try changing something, but I keep returning to my usual.

[BySword]

Originally Posted by dridge

Schermaport two-piece pommel (heavy, incredibly expensive, but worth every cent)

It goes for $41 on absolute, it's kinda crazy for a pommel

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by BySword

haha, interesting! so you hold it like a sabre or with pistol hand position?
i am thinking about using a viniti as my practice blade but I am worrying about it's whippyness. Back when I was still fencing pistol with a viniti, the feel was actually quite good. But I have a quite different game with pommelling now, I worry that viniti is not good for accurates picks to small targets(ie. wrist, foot, ect.)

It's pretty close to sabre, but not exactly. Hard to explain without showing. I do not point my index fingers though.

The vnitis have a definite point lag, but that's merely conditioning IMHO. As it is I have to have a pretty incredible amount of hand strength to pull off back flicks and the like; I shudder to think of what I would have to do in order to do the same with a BF-type. And my coach already went there with the hand strength jokes, so you don't have to, kthx

In my opinion it's a mistake to think that a french grip should limit you tactically. There are some preconcieved notions of "the french game". They're wrong. With training you can out muscle any opponent, flick, infight, etc. It's more work than with pistol, but possible. It does provide a benefit to those who play the distance and timing game well, though.

[El Chucko]

Originally Posted by dridge

...Schermaport two-piece pommel (heavy, incredibly expensive, but worth every cent)...

I have always been intrigued by the two-piece pommel. Why two pieces? What's the advantage? Dan DeChaine tried to describe some sort of pommel for "notched tangs" to me once... this isn't it, is it?

Originally Posted by dridge

...Tang set about 1.5 cm short of the limit, with a slight bend...

What do you mean? The limit of the cant, so it will still fit through the Gabarit?

[dridge]

Originally Posted by El Chucko

What do you mean? The limit of the cant, so it will still fit through the Gabarit?

Right.

I don't know the reason for the two-piece design. I'm a fairly big guy, and I use the pommel primarily for its satisfying contour, dimensions, and heft.

[BySword]

Originally Posted by El Chucko

I have always been intrigued by the two-piece pommel. Why two pieces? What's the advantage? Dan DeChaine tried to describe some sort of pommel for "notched tangs" to me once... this isn't it, is it?

What do you mean? The limit of the cant, so it will still fit through the Gabarit?

the pommel for notches tangs would be the LP ones, i believe.

[BySword]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

In my opinion it's a mistake to think that a french grip should limit you tactically. There are some preconcieved notions of "the french game". They're wrong. With training you can out muscle any opponent, flick, infight, etc. It's more work than with pistol, but possible. It does provide a benefit to those who play the distance and timing game well, though.

well, I am a guy with fairly small statue. The prime motive for me to swtich to french at the time is that I could equalize some of the reach disadvantage. The french grip didnt limit me tactically, i still do quite a bit beat(mainly as a feint though), takes and oppostitions. i do agree that your leverage is weaker and a lot of stuff is trickier. I meant that I am fencing pistol and french with some distinct tactical elements. But yea, you are right, I dont really plan to over power my oppoenent in my game (given my small statue), thus I play my distance and timing game really well.

[telkanuru]

I'm just saying that most people who take up a french grip stop playing the strength game because they think they can't, when in fact it simply requires more work for an equal level of proficiancy. Not to metion switching had positions ("choking up") is a thing that can suprise the heck out of your opponent when done right. Also, I've found small people the best at the overpower game :-p

the point is not to think that any factors of size, grip, etc. should limit what you can do, provided proper training.

[BySword]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

I'm just saying that most people who take up a french grip stop playing the strength game because they think they can't, when in fact it simply requires more work for an equal level of proficiancy. Not to metion switching had positions ("choking up") is a thing that can suprise the heck out of your opponent when done right. Also, I've found small people the best at the overpower game :-p

the point is not to think that any factors of size, grip, etc. should limit what you can do, provided proper training.

yea, I saw a guy about my size(again, it's a secret) at national DIV1A doing a lot of takes and oppositions.
I noticed that my touches went a lot lighter since I switched to french though, improvement of distance!

[piste off]

Originally Posted by El Chucko

I have always been intrigued by the two-piece pommel. Why two pieces? What's the advantage? Dan DeChaine tried to describe some sort of pommel for "notched tangs" to me once... this isn't it, is it?

The two piece pommel that DRIDGE mentioned is different than the one you are thinking of (for "notched tangs"). Prieur used to offer a notched tang (it contains NO threads, and the end of it forms a T. The way it worked is that there was a metal piece that straddled the T, with outside threading. This fit inside the larger outside pommel (the larger outside piece threaded around the part that straddled the T). You had to use blades that had the T, and there was no way to convert conventional blades (threaded) to T or vice versa (the T blades were flat going into the T and could not be threaded to hold a conventional pommel).

I have not seen these T blades anywhere recently. They were supposed to be stronger and easier to set-up, but I could never see any advantage and they were more hassle than they were worth.

The Shermasport pommels are also two piece, and I am not sure why they are that way, but I suspect for balance reasons (probably a bad guess). Shermasport french grips are about 1 cm shorter than others, and the two piece pommel is 1 cm longer than normal to make up the difference. You can use the Shermasport pommel with non-Shermasport french grips, but the combination will probably be greater than the legal length.

The Shermasport pommel has a small "spacer" made of aluminum, or at least a lighter metal, that fits in between the grip and the second piece that forms the bulk of the pommel. They dovetail into each other and thread like a regular pommel. They are nicely machined, but very expensive and best ordered directly from Italy.

There is not a good selection of pommels out there, which is a critical part of a pommeling game. Most are too small or too big (e.g. Allstar). American Fencing used to have some real nice ones (about 15 years ago) and the best were made by my college coach who had machining skills and was able to get very specific in shape and weight. Real works of art.

Rick

[BySword]

Originally Posted by piste off

The two piece pommel that DRIDGE mentioned is different than the one you are thinking of (for "notched tangs"). Prieur used to offer a notched tang (it contains NO threads, and the end of it forms a T. The way it worked is that there was a metal piece that straddled the T, with outside threading. This fit inside the larger outside pommel (the larger outside piece threaded around the part that straddled the T). You had to use blades that had the T, and there was no way to convert conventional blades (threaded) to T or vice versa (the T blades were flat going into the T and could not be threaded to hold a conventional pommel).

I have not seen these T blades anywhere recently. They were supposed to be stronger and easier to set-up, but I could never see any advantage and they were more hassle than they were worth.

The Shermasport pommels are also two piece, and I am not sure why they are that way, but I suspect for balance reasons (probably a bad guess). Shermasport french grips are about 1 cm shorter than others, and the two piece pommel is 1 cm longer than normal to make up the difference. You can use the Shermasport pommel with non-Shermasport french grips, but the combination will probably be greater than the legal length.

The Shermasport pommel has a small "spacer" made of aluminum, or at least a lighter metal, that fits in between the grip and the second piece that forms the bulk of the pommel. They dovetail into each other and thread like a regular pommel. They are nicely machined, but very expensive and best ordered directly from Italy.

There is not a good selection of pommels out there, which is a critical part of a pommeling game. Most are too small or too big (e.g. Allstar). American Fencing used to have some real nice ones (about 15 years ago) and the best were made by my college coach who had machining skills and was able to get very specific in shape and weight. Real works of art.

Rick

sounds like the slot design Leon Paul is using, except for if you thread the tang on the leon Paul blade, it's possible to use both normal pommel and LP ones on it. I believe LP blades sold my fening.net used to have both thread and slot on the tang.

[Mike O]

I use the following:

PS Chevalier blue maraging blade w/ FWF Point

German Titanic ultralight bell guard

The "Coach Reith's" french grip from Absolute (Rubber over Aluminum) w/ the Schermasport 2 piece pommel (the combination of the 2 keeps it just under the max legal length)

I add a pronounced bend to the grip and tang once it's assembled, bringing it to within about a centimeter of the legal threshold. I also add a quick wrap of athletic tape to provide a little extra grip.

I've tried a couple other pommels and I far prefer the Schermasport. It just fits in the hand really well and I like the balance that it gives the weapon. For me it's worth the extra cost.

I ordered a complete weapon from Absolute with all the above components, but with a BF blue maraging blade and had the dubious honor of it being the most expensive weapon they've ever assembled.

(Until recently I had been using the LP carbon fibre grip, which I bought to give pommelling a try. Since I switched over to this new combination of blade & components my point control and fine blade manipulation have improved because of the balance of the weapon.)

[noodle]

bump.
i'm considering making a french grip for practice.

anyone like the LP CF grip? can you cant the blade and use the LP grip at the same time? i've only seen them on straight blades.

[Smyles]

anyone like the LP CF grip?

Now there's a can 'o' worms! Seriously, use the search function (even the new snazzy Google one that Craig's set up) and you'll find loads of comments on it.

can you cant the blade and use the LP grip at the same time?

With a bit of modification I'm sure you can. The amount of modification would obviously depend on the degree of canting you're talking about.