Rule Question

[Coldfire]

I looked in the rulebook about this but didnt see an answer to my question so here it is.
Is it legal to put your off hand to the floor? I've done it a few time to keep my balance after a very long lunge that kind of messed with my balance (bad of me I know but thats not the point). My coach saw me do it and told me not to do it because its against the rules and he asked the top sabre fencer on our team about it and she said the same thing, that you would be warned for doing it. I was almost certain that this was legal (putting your ungloved hand to the floor or even touching it say with a few fingers to keep balance on a long lunge) but apparently not. Justed to see what you guys know about this and point me in the right direction in the rulebook. If in fact it isnt against the rules what are your thought about it? Good or bad? When should it be used and when not?
Thanks.

[mrbiggs]

It is legal. It is specifically mentioned as legal in the rulebook.

t.21 Displacing the target and ducking are allowed even if during the
action the unarmed hand comes into contact with the strip.

[Coldfire]

Ok thanks a lot.

[keropie]

There is, of course, a caveat: touches may not be made while falling (group 1 penalty). It's fairly easy to see a ref saying 'well, you had to catch yourself because you were falling, so while you may have hit them, I'm going to have to give you a yellow card.' Essentially, a lunge that's so off balance that you have to use your hand to catch yourself could be considered 'disorderly fencing' (again, a group 1 penalty). But the hand on the floor is not, in and of itself, illegal.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by keropie

There is, of course, a caveat: touches may not be made while falling (group 1 penalty). It's fairly easy to see a ref saying 'well, you had to catch yourself because you were falling, so while you may have hit them, I'm going to have to give you a yellow card.' Essentially, a lunge that's so off balance that you have to use your hand to catch yourself could be considered 'disorderly fencing' (again, a group 1 penalty). But the hand on the floor is not, in and of itself, illegal.

It's not falling. Falling causes a halt, whereas touching the strip with your unarmed hand doesn't.

That's how I was taught, at least.

[TrainingDummy]

I do it often (in epee) and I've never heard anyone say anything. The rule is no more than 3 points of contact, right?

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by TrainingDummy

I do it often (in epee) and I've never heard anyone say anything. The rule is no more than 3 points of contact, right?

No. That's the common misconception.

The rule is two feet and a hand, and you must be fencing orderly in addition to that. (You can't do a flip)

[Katman]

The card I've heard for this was "uncontrolled fencing," which isn't always applicable I suppose. I was reffing a bout and one fencer very smoothly riposted by sliding forward on his knees (no metallic strip and a wooden floor, so he got away with not shredding his pants).

Seriously, he looked like a rock star. I annulled it and gave him a card. I'm still curious about what the official phrasing for that should be. Do I call it uncontrolled anyway?

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Katman

Seriously, he looked like a rock star. I annulled it and gave him a card. I'm still curious about what the official phrasing for that should be. Do I call it uncontrolled anyway?

Yes, or "scoring a touch while falling".

[KD5MDK]

"disorderly fencing" is the term on the penalty chart.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

It is legal. It is specifically mentioned as legal in the rulebook.

t.21 Displacing the target and ducking are allowed even if during the
action the unarmed hand comes into contact with the strip.

I would think using t.21 in this instance would not be valid. Both the actions mentioned are defensive actions, while Coldfire was talking about an offensive action (i.e. lunge). I would agree with the others that it would be considered falling and would apply t.87.

[KD5MDK]

t.21 says nothing about defensive actions, and displacing target (or even ducking in a lunge) are perfectly possible as offensive actions. If the fencer appeared to be out of control or off balance, then I might consider it to be disorderly fencing, but if they made a controlled action that utilized the off-weapon hand to steady them, such as a forward moving passato soto, I see nothing inherently wrong with it.

[Frater_Frag]

Its all a matter of perception and intent, if its done while still in balance, then its ok, if not... then your at the mercy of the ref...

Besides, some classical moves like the Passata Sotto involves using your free hand for support against the ground.