Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

BySword · 11-12-2006, 10:30 PM

I know wikipedia is not a very authentic source, but I read this

"In the sport of fencing, blades used in competitions run under the auspicies of the FIE (Fédération Internationale d'Escrime [International Fencing Federation]) are made with maraging steel. The thought that such blades break flat - thus in the words of one equipment catalogue, "doing your opponent a great favor" - is actually a fencing urban legend. Testing has shown that the blade breakage patterns in carbon steel and maraging steel blades are identical."

Any comment on this?

CvilleFencer · 11-12-2006, 10:37 PM

Pretty much true, at least in it's essence. A maraging blade is simply made to a higher standard, with a different metalurgical content, so that they last longer. Less likely to break = safer blades. They also are much less likely to rust due to Chromnium and/or Vandnium (IIRC) in the steel.

mrbiggs · 11-12-2006, 10:55 PM

All the armorers I've talked to (on this forum) say that it's a myth.

People still think it, though.

larkmaj · 11-12-2006, 11:09 PM

I agree with Cville, they don't break any differently than non, just less often. Longer time to failure = less failures = less opportunity for injury = safer. Same basic concept with the S2000.

El Chucko · 11-12-2006, 11:15 PM

Also to note: not all FIE blades are maraging. (Vniti, for example, are a different alloy.)

Purple Fencer · 11-12-2006, 11:55 PM

The statement in Wikipedia is correct....I'm the one who wrote it.

I'll go and correct the statemement re non-maraging blades, tho...

erooMynohtnA · 11-13-2006, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Pretty much true, at least in it's essence. A maraging blade is simply made to a higher standard, with a different metalurgical content, so that they last longer. Less likely to break = safer blades. They also are much less likely to rust due to Chromnium and/or Vandnium (IIRC) in the steel.

It's the nickel, as chromium and vanadium are not present in any signifigant quantity in maraging steel. Nickel runs about 20%.

BySword · 11-13-2006, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Chucko

Also to note: not all FIE blades are maraging. (Vniti, for example, are a different alloy.)

really? can you get the composition for the viniti blade? It is adverstised as maraging blade by almost every retailing company

erooMynohtnA · 11-13-2006, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BySword

really? can you get the composition for the viniti blade? It is adverstised as maraging blade by almost every retailing company

There are non-maraging FIE blades, but I don't know if Vniti is actually one of them.

I've seen it advertised that Vniti blades contain vanadium, and that may disqualify them as a maraging steel despite having the same alloying elements in other regards.

fatfencer · 11-13-2006, 12:40 AM

I've actually hand forged blades of various shapes and sizes and I've also seen a few cheap carbon steel blades break as well as a few BF blue ones.

Here are some of the differences I've noticed (limited quantities mind you.. e.g. a representative sample but not large enough in quantity as to be deemed incontrovertible or otherwise infallible)

First, the break on the carbon blade was at the beginning of the foible. The break line was not perpendicular to the wire groove but more like 35-45 degrees producing a sharp point. The surface of the break was jagged and rough.

On the BF the blade broke mid foible and very much perpendicular to the groove. With enough force either could penetrate mask mesh. But the carbon blade came to a decided point whilst the BF was well.. not pointed.

It would be very easy to stab meat with the carbon blade, and quite a bit more difficult to stab meat with the broken BF.

I have not seen a BF break in the same pointed way the carbon one did.

I reason that its because the carbon in the cheap blade crystallizes(martensite) and when it breaks it tends to break in nice sharp lines.

It may be urban legend, but some legends are worth believing in .

FF

CvilleFencer · 11-13-2006, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erooMynohtnA

I've seen it advertised that Vniti blades contain vanadium, and that may disqualify them as a maraging steel despite having the same alloying elements in other regards.

I am far from sure on this, but I thought that the original cold rolled Vniti blades had a higher than normal chromium content and that a few years ago they decreased that and added/increased the Vanadium content among some other changes. Far from sure on that though...

Barry or Alex, if you happen to read through this thread, didn't you have a hand in helping Vniti set up their forging process? Maybe you would not mind shedding some light on the makeup of their blades. For that matter, I assume that you are using something other than just nickel in your FIE blades, especially the epees right?

CvilleFencer · 11-13-2006, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatfencer

It would be very easy to stab meat with the carbon blade, and quite a bit more difficult to stab meat with the broken BF.

Sounds like a good arguement for wearing a chest plate, at least until the USFA requires FIE blades! Sorry, not trying to threadjack into that old arguement, I just couldn't resist...

larkmaj · 11-13-2006, 02:01 AM

I have in my notes vnetium (I assume is a misspelling of vanadium), cobalt, titanium, and nickel. If I remember correctly this is the makeup of the Russian non-maraging steel FIE blades since they didn't have access to chromium I believe, can't remember if Vnity is one of them. However, unlike other non-maraging steel FIE blades, these blades do not need to be identified as non-maraging basically because they are made in almost the same way and of similar quality.

larkmaj · 11-13-2006, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatfencer

::snip:: long post ::snip::

It probably doesn't matter, but are you talking about foils, epees, both?

mrbiggs · 11-13-2006, 03:07 AM

While looking for an article that can actually prove people that believe in this wrong, I came across this article:

http://www.key-to-steel.com/Articles/Art103.htm

Which I found interesting. It said that maraging steel is especially good for "repeated impact load situations" and are especially good as long, thin parts. Sounds perfect.

http://www.physicalchess.com/faq.aspx

Physical chess also believes this.

http://www.whatisfencing.com/article...d0232e0438d7b2
http://www.fencing.net/content/view/108/29/
As does Walter Flaschka, who I would normally trust to get this stuff right.

If it's an urban legand, it's certainly got a large following.

noodle · 11-13-2006, 10:31 AM

they break flattER than regular blades, imho. i've never had a maraging blade that's broken into a jagged spike like i've with had some of my non-maraging blades. however, i've had plenty of sharp pieces on the broken maraging ones, too.

maraging steel is only longer-lasting.

larkmaj · 11-13-2006, 11:45 AM

Part of the Urban legen is that maraging steel is used because it breaks cleaner when in fact how it breaks is not at all considered. Whether or not the cleaner break is true has nothing to do with why maraging steel is used.

Katman · 11-13-2006, 12:43 PM

Yah. All the maraging foils I've broken snapped just like the carbon steel blades I've broken.

DHCJr · 11-13-2006, 12:56 PM

Below is the list of approved blades. I believe that those with a N use a Non-approved non-maraging steel composition, but they pass the durability as well as all other requirements.

http://www.fie.ch/download/rules/fr/...2020060702.pdf

There has been one type of non-maraging steel that has been approved and that for only epee.

45Si7, 45SiSiCrMo, 45XH2MFA

Even non-approved steel must be subjected to the same manufacturing process of approved steel (In Section I Weapons - 3.3 Manufacturing process)

Barry Paul · 11-15-2006, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Barry or Alex, if you happen to read through this thread, didn't you have a hand in helping Vniti set up their forging process? Maybe you would not mind shedding some light on the makeup of their blades. For that matter, I assume that you are using something other than just nickel in your FIE blades, especially the epees right?

We did advise viniti in the beginning on blade dimensions etc.
Maraging is a generic name for steels with no/very low carbon contebt but harden by aging at temperature. Within the maraging family there is a wide range of performance UTS Yield strength and K1C value (Rate of crack propagation)
When the regulations were drawn up it was stated that only blades made from a fairly narrow range of maraging specification would be accepted subsequently they agreed that other steels might pass the blade bend test like our experimental Paul Steel. They therefore agreed to accept any other steel if it passed the bend test but would have a N. I think some of the blades with N are using Maraging steel but of a type outside the original maraging specification.

By careful surface finishing I can get one of our standard etoile blades to pass the blade bending test, but the blade in use would last more like a standard blade than a maraging blade.