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Warik · 11-12-2006, 07:35 PM

I'm an E-rated saber fencer with about 8 months of competition experience. I'm looking to get on the right track to improving to a D and starting to place in decent sized local tournaments.

What's the next best thing to personal instruction from a coach that I can do to advance beyond where I am now? Would training DVDs or books be of any value to me? Should I watch high level competition DVDs and try to emulate the competitors? Or should I simply just practice drills and keep fencing the same people in practice and hope to improve at the same rate they do?

Any suggestions would be most appreciated. Thanks.

RebelFencer · 11-12-2006, 07:42 PM

Great people to practice against.

D+F+P=Hadouken! · 11-12-2006, 08:05 PM

Do what me and Rebel do.

Work your friggin a$$ off.

Its simple.

bigdawg2121 · 11-12-2006, 08:07 PM

As Rebel said the better your practice partners the stronger you'll get. If you can't find stronger practice (and you find that you're stronger than those around you) then force yourself to keep focused and work on specific actions, tactics, etc. As a general thing I'd also say work on your footwork. A saber fencer with poor footwork doesn't accomplish much (and even if its not poor it can probably be better).

Warik · 11-12-2006, 08:32 PM

DFP, I agree and have no problem doing so. Just need a good resource to know what it is that I need to work on and the correct way to do it. The worst thing would be to learn how to perfectly execute the wrong tactic at the worst possible time.

Rebel/bigdawg, there are not a lot of really strong practice partners a reasonable distance from me. There are only a handful of us saber fencers at my club and we are all relatively equally matched. The most likely scenario would be that we'd all slowly get better off of each other, but of course, who wants to wait for that? Regarding footwork, where can I read about some good footwork drills to practice?

erooMynohtnA · 11-12-2006, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warik

DFP, I agree and have no problem doing so. Just need a good resource to know what it is that I need to work on and the correct way to do it. The worst thing would be to learn how to perfectly execute the wrong tactic at the worst possible time.

Rebel/bigdawg, there are not a lot of really strong practice partners a reasonable distance from me. There are only a handful of us saber fencers at my club and we are all relatively equally matched. The most likely scenario would be that we'd all slowly get better off of each other, but of course, who wants to wait for that? Regarding footwork, where can I read about some good footwork drills to practice?

If you're really dedicated to working hard, there are strong practice partners a reasonable distance from you. It's just a question of how hard you're willing to work to get to them.

Knowing the right drill doesn't ensure you'll do it correctly. You need someone in person. Invite a coach or a good fencer from another club to come for a night every month, offer something in return: women, money, cars. That person will be able to give you advice on what you need to work on.

And as bigdawg said, fence to your partner's strength. If they're good at footwork, try to fence them with an emphasis on distance. If they have good parries, try to hit them with counter-ripostes.

D+F+P=Hadouken! · 11-12-2006, 09:36 PM

Warik, I'm in a similar situation, being a B in a club full of U's.

But don't worry about it.

You can make progress without better partners (they don't hurt though).

Just compete often, practice your footwork and bladework, and get on a cross training program that is goal setting friendly (when I say this, I mean a program where you can set a goal and measure your progress objectively).

You'll get there if you're smart and dedicated.

Angwilwileth · 11-12-2006, 09:39 PM

One thing that has worked very well for me is getting friends to videotape my bouts both in tournaments and practice.

tehcow · 11-12-2006, 09:51 PM

Watch as much fencing at a higher level as you possibly can. This could mean world cup DVDs, but more often it would mean sticking around at the tournament you get knocked out in to watch the finals. You don't have to emulate the fencers, but just work out why they win more than you and try to apply it to your own fencing. Although emulating their moves in practice isn't always a bad idea. I don't know about the value of training books or DVDs. Fence as many different people as you can. Some may disagree with me on this, but I would say fence different weapons every now and then if it means you get to fence better fencers. A lot of skills important in sabre are also important in the other weapons. Learn how to referee if you get the opportunity, it will give you a perspective of your fencing you haven't seen before (if you haven't done this already). Do as much as you can fencing-wise, anything you do is going to help in some way.

bigdawg2121 · 11-13-2006, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erooMynohtnA

If you're really dedicated to working hard, there are strong practice partners a reasonable distance from you. It's just a question of how hard you're willing to work to get to them.

While I know what you're getting at (and the ideas offered about trying to get experienced coaches or fencers to come to you occasionally are excellent and should be pursued) I'm gonna have to call BS on that portion of your post. There's not always something to be done about a lack of practice partners. Unlimited money, time, and other resources are not a fact of life and sometimes expendable time, money, and resources are non-existent as well. There are certainly times when you can't do much about your crappy situation but try to work it out as best you can on your own.

sabreur · 11-13-2006, 06:54 AM

Watching DVDs of top fencers is very useful, I think. If you do have some practice partners who are ambitious, get them to watch them too. Having your bouts video'ed is humbling and eye-opening.

Drill. Do footwork (ignore Inq when he chimes in to say that he does neither).

In sabre in particular, short steps and varied tempo are vital. Don't just practice "advance-lunge" for ten strips. Practice mixed footwork: Half-advance-retreat, advance-advance-lunge.

Consider going to fencing camp--it doesn't replace regular training with a master and good training partners, but you'll get immersed in a lot of ideas and good fencing for a week or so.

rcmatthews · 11-13-2006, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warik

Rebel/bigdawg, there are not a lot of really strong practice partners a reasonable distance from me. There are only a handful of us saber fencers at my club and we are all relatively equally matched. The most likely scenario would be that we'd all slowly get better off of each other, but of course, who wants to wait for that? Regarding footwork, where can I read about some good footwork drills to practice?

I don't think that is the most likely scenario. Most likely is that you all stay pretty much where you are at, but develop tactics to defeat specific moves that your training partners do.

RebelFencer · 11-13-2006, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warik

DFP, I agree and have no problem doing so. Just need a good resource to know what it is that I need to work on and the correct way to do it. The worst thing would be to learn how to perfectly execute the wrong tactic at the worst possible time.

Rebel/bigdawg, there are not a lot of really strong practice partners a reasonable distance from me. There are only a handful of us saber fencers at my club and we are all relatively equally matched. The most likely scenario would be that we'd all slowly get better off of each other, but of course, who wants to wait for that? Regarding footwork, where can I read about some good footwork drills to practice?

If you're evenly matched with the group then one of two things is going to happen: 1) One of you is going to do something to improve and possibly raise the overall level (In this case you'd probably want that person to be you) 2) You all do what you've been doing and wait for it to happen...inevitably you all stagnate and improve very little.

Bigdawg is absolutlely right with his assertion that if the people you're fencing against are too below your level, then you need to just work on things against them. Sometimes though that does not work as well as it should. You get partners who are below the level of rational fencing, and fencing them only teaches you how to deal with irrational fencers...which is important, but does not really help you get "good." I would suggest that you travel to the strongest tournaments you can, fence in them and watch the other fencers. Get advice and maybe see if anyone wants to practice a little after the tournament or after you're both out. I promise you if you do this you will get better.

glowstix · 11-13-2006, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

Bigdawg is absolutlely right with his assertion that if the people you're fencing against are too below your level, then you need to just work on things against them. Sometimes though that does not work as well as it should. You get partners who are below the level of rational fencing, and fencing them only teaches you how to deal with irrational fencers...which is important, but does not really help you get "good."

that works in theory. i've been in that situation and it was too frustrating. its like studying for a multivariable calculus final using a freshman level college algebra book. ain't gonna happen!! if the "irrational" fencers aren't giving you the "correct" stimulus or responses then it won't work. to beat good fencing you need to see good fencing and fence against good fencers. that means going to tons of tournaments as DFP says.

other than that, the only hope is to work on your footwork and travel to where the strong fencing is..even if its a 2-4 hour drive. do it once a week (but don't abandon the weaker fencers; they still need you). i've been there and i improved...not as fast as i'd like but definitely faster than trying to work on stuff with weaker fencers.

of course another option would be to relocate to where the good fencing clubs are,

not easy but possible.

Inquartata · 11-13-2006, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabreur

Drill. Do footwork (ignore Inq when he chimes in to say that he does neither).

Heigh ho, like the Devil I come when named.

I DO footwork, it's just that I do it while bouting, not as a stand-alone exercise. Unless it's to warm up before a competition the venue of which offers no stairs or escalators.

I do not drill. The payoff for the boredom is not large enough.

My recommendation to Warik is to bout a lot, preferably with someone watching you to point out what you're doing right and wrong. This assumes the watcher knows what he's doing. Having yourself videotaped is useful, as Angwilwileth and Sabreur said, especially if your watcher is not an experienced fencer or you can't get someone to observe...but too, if you don't know what to look for watching the tape won't do you as much good as it could otherwise.

I used to go to competitions and I would try to adopt one action from a really good fencer whose style approximated mine, or what I thought mine should be. Then I'd work on integrating that action. Sometimes it "took", sometimes not.

sabregrrrl · 11-13-2006, 01:35 PM

Something that helped me improve my fencing was to teach beginner classes. By demonstrating and correcting technique, my own improved. It also improved my endurance. I teach two beginner classes before taking my own class, for a grand total of 3 1/2 to four hours of training twice a week.

swordsen · 11-13-2006, 01:44 PM

Do you not have a coach at all or just not a coach who does saber? IF you have a coach, sit down and talk to him. He probably has some books or acan refer you to those who do.
I am sort of in this situation is that I am not a saber coach at all but have a few students that want to do saber. (are you one of mine??? Ben?) I have wpent alot of time talking to peopel I know that are saberists and watching saber, even going to refree clinics tos ee what the saber refs are looking for and trying to develope a program for my fencers. Progress is being made.

At any rate, good luck to you and go to as many tournaments as you can, talk to the fencers that win and ask for advice. Talk to the refs afterwards and see what they say you are doing wrong.

BrianH · 11-13-2006, 01:45 PM

Several years ago my first coach retired and I was left pretty much alone as a fencer. I practiced footwork and point work as well as competing as often as I could. I wasn't improving much, just maintaining my skills on the same level. After about a year of this, a friend suggested I visit her club once a week, so I drove to the city (two hours each way) and practiced with good fencers there. I started working with their coach, who specialized in sabre but helped me immensely in épée.

From my own experience, I know it was worth it to me to put in the time and mileage to fence with good partners; the alternative was to stop fencing and who wants to do that? I would follow the same plan in a second if I were in that position again.

Good luck in whatever path you choose, Warik.

rcmatthews · 11-13-2006, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowstix

that works in theory. i've been in that situation and it was too frustrating. its like studying for a multivariable calculus final using a freshman level college algebra book. ain't gonna happen!! if the "irrational" fencers aren't giving you the "correct" stimulus or responses then it won't work. to beat good fencing you need to see good fencing and fence against good fencers. that means going to tons of tournaments as DFP says.

Have some rep!

I thinking drilling, while boring, could be useful for someone who doesnt have a coach, and presumable lacks lessons as well.