Does hate help you win? Is it okay to hate your opponent?

[labelle]

Do you find that, in highly competitive situations, that hating your opponent helps you or gives you an edge? Do you feed off hatred when you fence competitively? Even if you know they're a perfectly nice person off the strip, do you feel an intense animosity toward them when the masks are on? Do you think it's okay/right to feel that way?

How does your perception of other fencers change when you really, really, really want to win?

Does the intensity needed to win come from hate? If not, from where?

Keep in mind we're talking high-stakes bouts or when winning is pretty much everything. I doubt many people get too worked up about small local tournaments or practice bouts at the club.

(I ask because a basketball player friend made the comment that he and the team would actually hate the opposing team, wanting to just crush them. They'd use that emotion as a source of energy and motivation. Just wondering if anyone experienced or has seen this in fencing.)

[Craig]

When I go into a bout, I'm going to war. My job is to crush my opponent and move on to the next bout.

That said, the focus is not on the person. I don't hate them, or even care about them, I just want to hit them.

No matter what, I try to leave it all on the strip. Once the bout is over, it's over.

Craig

[BySword]

I think it's ok to hate your opponent if you think it will be a source of energy.
Personally, I remained neutral and calm when i fence important bouts, too much excitement can be dangerous, especially in epee. I always try to remain calm and focused, all I have in my mind is to hit the other guy using any method(legal methods). I dont know about other two weapons though, maybe hatred helps in the other two.

[eac]

I have at various points hated my opponents, and it completely screws me up, because when you hate someone, the more natural thing to think is to want to bludgeon them to death, rather than tricking them and laughing at them. Fencing is all about trickery and deception, which is highly impaired when I have an urge to bludgeon.

That said, you can't have pity or guilt for your opponent, either. I do best when I think my opponent is stupid, and I want to show them and other people just how and why they are stupid. When my opponent looks stupid, I'm usually doing well.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Don't look for the truth in singularity.

It depends on the fencer. I know a guy who fences at his best when angry-note: don't **** with his blades-, but I fence best when relaxed and apathetic.

Find your mental game type.

[tbryan]

Yes. I find that the pool goes much faster if I really hate all of the fencers, and it helps me finish before all of the other referees.

Oops...oh, you meant fencing, not refereeing.

Originally Posted by labelle

Does the intensity needed to win come from hate? If not, from where?

Perhaps "hate" helps some fencers, but I've never really tried that approach. It sounds like a miserable way to spend my free time.

Early in the day? The desire to fence more is all the motivation I need. Once I lose a bout (in DEs), I'm done for the day. I'd like to fence all the way to the final, if possible. And there are these fencers who want me to pay for a pool and just 1 or 2 DEs. Ha!

Seriously, on the strip, my opponent is more like a puzzle than a person. It would be strange to hate a puzzle.

Originally Posted by labelle

Keep in mind we're talking high-stakes bouts or when winning is pretty much everything.

I've never been in one of those. Perhaps someone who cares more will comment. It's not like I'm in some televised bout at the World Championships. If I win the tournament, some people at my club or in my division might be happy for me. If I lose in my first DE, some people at my club or in my division might harrass me about it. No one in my non-fencing life (at work, at home, etc.) remembers or really cares whether I'm in first place or last place in any particular tournament.

Originally Posted by labelle

I ask because a basketball player friend made the comment that he and the team would actually hate the opposing team, wanting to just crush them. They'd use that emotion as a source of energy and motivation.

While fencing actions can be quick and explosive, they can also be very subtle. Fencing actions aren't generally big or "strong." They're smooth, well-timed, and accurate. I think less of building up energy and motivation and more of building up focus. I don't need motivation to win, but I do need to be confident, relaxed, and ready to go when I see the opportunity.

It's not like I need to build up the energy to run up and down a court for 10 minutes straight, jumping several feet into the air to "stuff" my opponent's attempt at a shot. I've got, at most, three uninterrupted minutes on the strip at a time. And normally, there will at least be the interruption from touches scored, and the referee's reconstruction.

In a team sport, I'd say that the "hate" factor is partially just a way to get the team to feel like they're working together toward a common goal. That "us vs. them" mentality could be useful to get the team to work together as a team. In fencing, it's just me on the strip against my opponent. Artificial hate isn't necessary for me to fence at the intensity I need. I might hate the fencer just because he's a horrible person, but I've never noticed that I fence any better or worse when I really hate the opponent. I have noticed that I fence very poorly when I'm not focused or relaxed.

[AdamH]

If we're talking about using a cold and fierce sort of hate, a bit Conan the Barbarian, then I believe that this approach will work for some people.
"You are the enemy I will destroy", sure. But not rage. If someone needs to pump their self up as they are not otherwise motivated, or perhaps they model a fencing bout as a truely glacial combat space to be entered into, this is certainly a valid perspective.
I do think it is very important to respect your opponant. If we just rage, red mist-style at our opponant, and they are not at all impressed, well, we'll soon see who is the better fencer. Respect your opponant, pay attention and notice what/how/why they are doing. Have that cold point to be delivered in time and of your making.
Lovely.
The end of the bout; how you get there will be a matter of your own making and it really is a case of finding out what works for you.

[Durando]

Originally Posted by labelle

Do you find that, in highly competitive situations, that hating your opponent helps you or gives you an edge?

No moreso than going off one's meds or reading too many Conan novels. Combat isn't about hatred. It's about precision and adaptability under pressure.

We had a hater in our club last year. He still fences in the region. Interesting to see how far this approach will take him with some people, especially with people who engage him on an emotional level. He is easily beaten, of course, after an even elementary tactical analysis. And, god, I wouldn't want to be him in life. No real friends. Girlfriend with neither beauty nor charm. The stink of his self regard and lack of respect for others is perceptible a kilometer away.

As I've gotten older (not as old as Inq, but older than DFP) I've realized that putting the goof on someone is very effective in a bout. By that I mean doing something strange or funny but still within the limits of technique. Show yourself and your opponent that you're happy, even playful, on the strip and I think sometimes they get scared. Guy I fenced in competition two weeks ago was *way* too into whatever he was trying to do. I cut up my phrasing with a few stops, just little jokes really to see if he was paying attention. Well, it made me smile when I picked up two of those jokey-ass arrêts.

Either way, the above is less tiring at the end of the day than carrying around leaden clouds of ill will. That said, I can definitely be cold, unfriendly even. But hate is absolutely the wrong way to go.

[Peach]

In high-stakes situations when I've won, being "in the flow" was key. I don't recall any emotion to speak of.

I've occasionally won in low-stakes situations when I was peeved at someone for hitting me too hard, but that realy only works when I'm a whole lot better than my opponent, because anger makes my actions too big and intense.

[Beowulfman6]

"Anger leads to hatred, hatred leads to the dark side, Hmm"

-Yoda

Although I sometimes get angry when I fence and sometimes fence oponents I realy don't like, I can't say that I have ever hated an aponent, and I don't think that it would be beneficial if I did. When I get too emotional I lose my focus and fence poorly. I fence my best in a friendly atmosphere where I am friends with all of my oponents. I should point out though that none of the fencing I do could ever be called "high stakes"- I just don't fence at that level right now.

[jeff]

I've occasionally had situations where I wasn't focusing enough, and being pissed off at the opponent got me to buckle down to the job at hand. That said, I don't think being in a state of anger is helpful to good fencing, for the reasons stated above, let alone 'hate'. That's too much, and could be more of a distraction than a motivator. I've seen champion fencers who were extremely focused and had a bloody-minded "I will run right over you" attitude, but it's not personally directed at their opponent.

[labelle]

Interesting how anger and rage have been brought into this discussion. You can be angry at someone without hating them. Do you think it works the other way around? Can you hate someone without being angry at them?

As for myself, I'm not very good, so I'm generally in awe of anyone reasonably talented. It's hard to dislike someone while thinking "Whoa, that was really cool!" I don't think I've ever really hated my opponent; I can't hate someone for being better than me. Anger would definitely screw up anyone's fencing. Usually the person I'm angry at/frustrated with is myself, though. This is what goes through my head: "stupid, stupid, stupid!" followed by a deep breath and "okay, one point at a time."

On that note, do you ever hate yourself when you're fencing? Or, since hatred and anger seem to be connected in most people's minds, do you get angry with yourself?

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by Craig

When I go into a bout, I'm going to war. My job is to crush my opponent and move on to the next bout.

That said, the focus is not on the person. I don't hate them, or even care about them, I just want to hit them.

No matter what, I try to leave it all on the strip. Once the bout is over, it's over.

Craig

Exactly.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Hate won't help you. Or, well, hate won't help the vast majority of people past a certain point.

As Peach mentioned, it's about Flow. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology))

All I've got is a semester's worth of sports psych taught by an idiot, but peak performance usually coincides with people reporting "flow", and any particularly strong emotion usually interferes with flow.

Anger is often a step up from having no particular motivation at all, but if you don't need to hate your opponent to be motivated to hit them, that's a better option.

[sabreur]

Competitively, emotionally, ethically.

It is not ok, and it doesn't help.

I'm not a big fan of the "going to war" and "crushing my opponent" metaphors either.

The person you need to crush is the one you see when you look in the mirror. Ego gets in the way of peak performance.

[tehcow]

Ethically I feel that it is wrong to hate someone, and for fencing it is no different. The end does not justify the means. I can see how it may give some psychological advantage over weaker-willed fencers, but in general I don't think it would be helpful at all. It could often lead to anger or frustration, either of which are very detrimental. It could also lead to arrogance which could make everyone else, including the referee, think you an ass, leading to all sorts of problems for future bouts/tournaments.

I like the approach of the Australian cricket team in the Ashes series against England. At the end they all had a beer together, and throughout the series many of them became friends, but that is not to say they didn't come at each other with everything they had.

[little_old_me]

I find that the more emotional I get during a bout (be it anger, happiness, hatred, sympathy, etc), the worse I perform. I tend to do best when I just focus on figuring out how to get the next touche. Like someone else said, just figure out a puzzle.

[CvilleFencer]

I vastly prefer, and fence better with/against, someone who I like or at least respect. That's not to say fencing some of my friends does not drive me crazy on occasion, but it is never "hate" or even "dislike".

I have on occasion fenced people I actively dislike and I have a much harder time fencing them. I spend way to much time trying not to whack at them, drill them in sensitive spots or just keep my temper under control when they get touches on me. You see, contrary to what some folks think, I actually try to keep from being very heavy handed when I fence (if nothing else, it is bad for the blades!), and my mindset is such that if I hate someone, I generally want to erase their taint from the planet and do my part to preserve the gene pool by making sure they are no longer swimming in it. In other words, if I actively dislike someone, I would much rather be watching their blood drip off my knuckles than trying to hit them accurately and tactically with a little stick without "jostling" them in the process.

So, for me at least, and I would think most moderately functional types, hating someone would be counter to what one needs to do to fence well. Clear thinking, analysis of the bout and actions, and keeping relaxed enough to have clean hits and focus on distance, timing and accuracy, among other odds and ends. All of those are hard to do when you are thinking about how much fun it would be to hang the other person from their entrails...

In short, don't fence angry! It rarely works out well against anyone of a decent skill level.

[Zilverzmurfen]

Originally Posted by sabreur

Competitively, emotionally, ethically.

It is not ok, and it doesn't help.

I'm not a big fan of the "going to war" and "crushing my opponent" metaphors either.

The person you need to crush is the one you see when you look in the mirror. Ego gets in the way of peak performance.

All dito'd.